Bait and switch

[Revmitchell]

I speak very precisely.
If you are looking for something that "makes sense", you are trying to understand with your "carnal mind".
Gods understanding is Spiritual.
It is He ONLY who gives His understanding.
I can tell you, I can give you scriptures that parallel what I say, but I can not understand it for you.
It is obvious many on this forum simply parrot what they have been told, and severely lack understanding and thus resort to name calling, as if, that is justification for their own stubbornness and ignorance.

2Tim.2

1. [7] Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Rom.8
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:

You misunderstand, we want to know is what you personally think. Simply quoting scripture does not tell us what you think because there are many views of doctrine. We want to know how you view it. We can only know that by thorough explanation by you.

Telling others they only parrot what they have been told is not in evidence and you cannot know. Disagreeing with you is not evidence of that. However, doing that makes you guilty of the informal fallacy of ad hominem. Let's deal with the scripture and a full explanation of what your belief is. Leave the other things aside. Right now it is perceived that you hold to a heretical view of Jesus. We may be wrong but it is hard to tell since you avoid giving full explanation. Any further avoidance on this will affirm our understanding of your belief.

 

[Happy]

The Holy Spirit enabled the incarnate ("in flesh") Jesus to perform His ministry and enables the church to do so today, but the Spirit is a PERSON, not a force. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are God.

"but the Spirit is a PERSON, not a force"

You should learn and understand, before you attempt to TEACH.

This "not a force" you speak of; this "enabler" you speak of; "PERSON" you speak of;.....

IS Precisely thee supreme POWER.

Nothing exists, Nothing occurs WITHOUT "POWER".

 

[Baptist Believer]

I have provided you explicit Scriptures that my view, trust and belief parallels.

Yes, and I understand why you are interpreting them that way. The scriptures you have provided are completely compatible with the scriptures I have quoted. The scriptures I have quoted are not compatible with your interpretation though. Therefore, your interpretation is mistaken.

You have made your personal opinions clear, with your snarky implications and comments, that you do not agree with my belief in the scriptures as I explicitly paralleled my belief toward.

Forgive me, I did not intend any snark. This is deadly serious stuff, greater than you or me or our differences.

And precisely what is your ignorant purpose for quoting me scripture that I have already made abundantly clear I have already fulfilled?

You have not fulfilled any scripture. Jesus has come in human flesh. To say otherwise is damnable heresy and a very serious thing.

You presenting yourself as my teacher is laughable.

I present to you the scriptures:

John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh..."

Romans 8:3 - "...He condemned sin in the flesh."

1 Timothy 3:16 - "...He who was revealed in flesh..."

Hebrews 2:14 - "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil"

1 John 4:12 - "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God."

Seriously, you should stop parroting what has tickled your ears and start a discovery mission of what it means to do the WILL of the Father.

Please deal with the scripture I have presented. Jesus has come in human flesh.

 

[Revmitchell]

"but the Spirit is a PERSON, not a force"

You should learn and understand, before you attempt to TEACH.

This "not a force" you speak of; this "enabler" you speak of; "PERSON" you speak of;.....

IS Precisely thee supreme POWER.

Nothing exists, Nothing occurs WITHOUT "POWER".

Here is yet another vague post, it appears you are either being vague intentionally or you are talking past BB. Another way to say what BB said is that the Holy Ghost has power but "is" a person. It is improper to say the Holy Ghost is a force or is power. That is what the Holy Ghost does and has but it is not who He is. Do you agree?

 

[Happy]

You misunderstand, we want to know what you personally think. Simply quoting scripture does not tell us what you think because there are many views of doctrine. We want to know how you view it. We can only know that by thorough explanation by you.

Already have.

Telling others they only

That is not ONLY what I said.

I said what I believe. I provided a few scriptures that I base my beliefs on. What is your confusion?

parrot what they have been told is not in evidence

I did not make that comment as evidence for my faith.
I made that comment after observing the evidence in their posts!

heretic, heretic, heretic, human, human, human

And their Scriptural backing? Conveniently missing!

Disagreeing with you is not evidence of that.

Never said it was. I never asked ANYONE to agree with ME.
I speak what "I" believe. I can give the Scriptural basis FOR WHAT "I" believe.
I direct others to SEEK Gods wisdom and HIS understanding.
I have done so, and don't care IF others do not desire to do the same. It is THEIR CHOICE to do so OR NOT.

They can and do call me all kinds of names; ( parroting one another ), BUT oddly NEVER direct their attention or comment on SEEKING God for "HIS" understanding.

However, doing that makes you guilty of the informal fallacy of ad hominem.

Perhaps I should be speaking to you or my neighbor or the birds about what comes out of THEIR MOUTHS against me?

Let's deal with the scripture and a full explanation of what your belief is. Leave the other things aside.

If it were your intent to leave the "other things" aside, WHY take the time to have YOUR SAY, then decide, MY SAY is not relevant?

I am fully aware everything about "a man", is the man.
And precisely why we attribute to "a man" the "possessive pronouns" that only is possessive to THAT one man.
His word, His heart, His mind, His body, His soul, His thoughts, His name, His ideas whatever...IS He.

I am fully aware of "political correctness" and the pretense that a mans words and ideas and thoughts are somehow NOT Him. And the fallacy that you can attack his thoughts and that is somehow "not accounted" as attacking "him".

Try to apply that nonsense of attacking Jesus' "ideas" "thoughts expressed" while pretending you are not attacking Jesus.

Right now it is perceived that you hold to a heretical view of Jesus.

Right now (actually repeatedly) I have had several people make that claim about what I believe.

We may be wrong but it is hard to tell since you avoid giving full explanation.

I avoid giving a FULL explanation?
Seriously? The FULL explanation would require me giving you the WHOLE of the Bible and Gods understanding.
And don't you get? YOU need to be the one WHO reads the knowledge in Scripture and seek God for His understanding?
I can simply give claim to have read the knowledge in Scripture, claim to trust it is true, claim to seek God for His understanding, claim to trust what He gives me, and serve God according to HOW He directs me.....which I have done and do.

So when others disagree with me, and vomit up their disparaging words against me, and you agree with them.....WHERE is YOUR FULL EXPLANATION? Where is YOUR Scriptural evidence my Scriptural evidence is WRONG? Where is YOUR evidence in Scripture that explains YOUR "perception" has merit?

Any further avoidance on this will affirm our understanding of your belief.

Your ignorance and perceptions and lack of understanding does not dictate my faith and beliefs, nor my TRUST in the Lord over you.

Now that you have had YOUR say, and dictated what MY SAY should be limited to; How about IF YOU want to POINT BLANK ask me A question, DO so. IF you agree fine. IF YOU Don't, say so. Then YOU can explain WHY you don't. You can give applicable Scriptural KNOWLEDGE to support your disagreement. YOU can give Gods spiritual understanding He has shown YOU in application of the KNOWLEDGE in scripture you present for your disagreement.

Since you are preaching FULL disclosure is required....BE the example Rev. Isn't that part of the JOB that comes along with the TITLE you have attached to your identity?

 

[Revmitchell]

Already have.



That is not ONLY what I said.

I said what I believe. I provided a few scriptures that I base my beliefs on. What is your confusion?




I did not make that comment as evidence for my faith.
I made that comment after observing the evidence in their posts!

I see so understand this post is clearly avoidance and obfuscation. We are not affirming that your view (unless otherwise explained by you) is heresy. Any further posting of this heretical view will be reported.

 

[Baptist Believer]

RevMitchell and I disagree on many things and are rarely completely unified in matters of doctrine and practice. However, this is a non-negotiable and fundamental issue of the Christian faith. You are clearly outside of Christian teaching when you deny that Jesus has come in human flesh. It is antichrist (1 John 4:3).

We are NOT saying that you are outside the grace of God. You may sincerely be a disciple of Jesus, but you are in serious error. Rejection of humble and careful assistance from other Christians in this serious error undermines your claim to be a disciple.

Saying this, I need to point out that when I was making my spiritual journey from agnosticism to Christian faith, the nature of Jesus is something I had to work through. The doctrine of incarnation (that Jesus was fully God and fully human in human flesh/form) was difficult to comprehend, but I took the whole counsel of scripture as my guide, using the clear passages that spoke of Jesus being flesh and blood, just as we are (see Hebrews 2:14), to interpret the passages that used the words, "form of a servant", "proceeded forth", "came out" and "form of God", as also affirming the humanity of Jesus. Along that journey from agnosticism to Christian faith, I was certainly in the realm of discipleship with Jesus already, even through my understanding of the faith had not caught up to my obedience.

In the same way, FOR THE SAKE OF JESUS AND YOUR OWN SOUL, I beg you to be obedient to Christ by laying down antagonism toward those of us here with whom you don't get along and take seriously the plain teaching of scripture regarding the human nature of Jesus. You are ultimately not accountable to me or to RevMitchell, but to Jesus at the end of the age. But as His representatives to you today, we ask that you lay down your defensiveness and take a careful and rational look at the evidence that has been provided.

 

[Happy]

Yes, and I understand why you are interpreting them that way. The scriptures you have provided are completely compatible with the scriptures I have quoted. The scriptures I have quoted are not compatible with your interpretation though. Therefore, your interpretation is mistaken.

your interpretation is mistaken.

Since you are so knowledgeable and understanding of MY beliefs...Why don't you precisely DEFINE "my supposed interpretation" ?

You have not fulfilled any scripture.

Since you are so knowledgeable of what I have or have NOT done....Why don't you precisely LIST "ALL the scriptures YOU claim I have NOT fulfilled?

Jesus has come in human flesh.

Scriptural quote that says precisely what you say?

To say otherwise is damnable heresy and a very serious thing.

Waiting for your scriptural quote that says what YOU say.
Since it is not damnable heresy to disagree with you.
Since I was not commanded to agree with you.

I present to you the scriptures:

John 1:14

- "And the Word became flesh..."

Romans 8:3 - "...He condemned sin in the flesh."

1 Timothy 3:16 - "...He who was revealed in flesh..."

Uh huh. Nothing I have not said or claim to disagree with.

Your words said...

Jesus has come in human flesh.

Why did you not present scripture that says what you say?

Hebrews 2:14

- "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil"

Uh huh

The children "SHARE" in flesh and blood. I know, HUMANS all have the SAME KIND of FLESH and BLOOD.
Why wouldn't they? They are all the SAME KIND of thing, made from the same element, called DUST of the EARTH!

And not a secret, LIKEWISE, as the children have flesh and blood, Jesus also had FLESH and BLOOD.

Are you attempting to IMPLY, Jesus' flesh and blood IS THE SAME FLESH AND BLOOD as HUMANS (ie the children)?
Don't be shy, state your claim if THAT is or isn't what you are trying to teach.

1 John 4:12

- "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God."

And? What is your point? Do you have a quote of me denying such? Why are you not providing quotes from me? Are you attempting to imply this your words in Scripture? Because it isn't. Your words said...

Jesus has come in human flesh.

Please deal with the scripture I have presented.

LOL. Deal with them. Already have.

Now how about you quoting me denying any of the scriptures you presented?

Jesus has come in human flesh.

Now how about you presenting a quote in scripture showing your words you are preaching?

And how about you expounding on what YOU THINK this scripture means?

Hebrews 2:14 - "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil"

Are you teaching Jesus took par the same AS the children did, by having flesh and blood?

Or are you teaching Jesus took part in the SAME FLESH AND BLOOD as the children have?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Hebrews 2:14 - "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil"

Are you attempting to IMPLY, Jesus' flesh and blood IS THE SAME FLESH AND BLOOD as HUMANS (ie the children)?
Don't be shy, state your claim if THAT is or isn't what you are trying to teach.

I have not been "attempting to imply" it, I have been boldly stating it because it is the biblical position.

Jesus, in His incarnation, shared the same flesh and blood and the rest of humankind.

Since His resurrection, He has a transformed body which the rest of us do not have yet, but that is a different issue.

Let me state it again, Jesus was of the same flesh and blood as the rest of humanity.

By the way, when I said you had not fulfilled any scripture, what I mean is that you are not a biblical figure that fulfills scripture. You are not John the Baptist, nor Jesus, Judas, nor likely any great antichrist figure of Revelation. Even if you were, that hasn't happened yet so you haven't fulfilled it.

 

[Happy]

I see so understand this post is clearly avoidance and obfuscation. We are not affirming that your view (unless otherwise explained by you) is heresy. Any further posting of this heretical view will be reported.

No you don't see. You want to dictate the rules for me, but excuse yourself from the same standard.
That's fine if you want to claim you are not affirming your claim against me, while making your claim against me. LOL oxymoron!

That's fine if you can file a report without proof of your claims, and such a report only requires your accusations....LOL
seriously, some of the nonsense people say on this forum is fit for a comedy stage.

 

[agedman]

Now that the thread has not only run off the tracks, but laid a road to itself, perhaps revisiting the op would be beneficial.

The thread was to show what bait and switch methods the worldly folks would attempt to show that God uses, and perhaps give some rebuttal thinking.

 

[Happy]

I have not been "attempting to imply" it, I have been boldly stating it because it is the biblical position.

Jesus, in His incarnation, shared the same flesh and blood and the rest of humankind.

Let me state it again, Jesus was of the same flesh and blood as the rest of humanity.

John.1

1. [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Cor 15

[39] All flesh is not the same flesh:

[47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:

By the way, when I said you had not fulfilled any scripture, what is mean is that you are not a biblical figure that fulfills scripture. You are not John the Baptist, nor Jesus, Judas, nor likely any great antichrist figure of Revelation. Even if you were, that hasn't happened yet so you haven't fulfilled it.

You have repeated yourself, speaking for me.
I never claimed to be a biblical figure, so that point is moot.
I have claimed I have fulfilled scripture.
Why do you spend your time making claims for me, in opposition to what I claim for myself?
Apparently YOU do not fulfill scripture. Too bad for you.
However ANYONE who does what scripture says, is fulfilling scripture.
And the following is an example of a scripture IF someone does, they have fulfilled that scripture.
That applies to me.
Too bad for you.


1Thes.4

1. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1) So how is Jesus born of the same blood...AS YOU CLAIM.
2) And NOT OF BLOOD....as scripture claims?

3) So IF all flesh is not the same.
4) How is the flesh body of the Lord from Heaven, (celestial) the same as the flesh body of a man of the earth (terrestrial)?

5) So why when scripture tells you IF you do it, what shall be accomplished, that you do not think it is fulfilling scripture?
6) Did you not learn from JESUS our example, that is exactly what you are supposed to do as a faithful servant?

 

[Happy]

I was in error. Some things you had written reminded me of conversations I have had with Mormons regarding the nature of God. It appears that you are actually entrapped in the Docetic heresy, with at least a touch of modalism (your view of the Spirit as a power).

That is big of you to dictate Labels for me

Would it be equally suitable for others to dictate Labels for you?

Would Atheist be to your liking?

Labels are appropriate so that we can adequately talk about a thing.

Labels are appropriate when a person makes their own declaration.

Do you not adhere to the teaching of Scripture, whereby God Himself dictates His own labels?
Or do you think it your place to supersede God and decide labels for Him, as you try to do for others?

Do you deny Docetism? If so, that would be a good thing.

I have no cause to deny what I did not claim for myself.

You should note that I have not jumped to conclusions. I have waited for you to tell us what you believe.

All of scripture is true. My God is thee Lord God Almighty, and it is He whom I serve according to His Will.

 

[Happy]

Jesus has come in human flesh.

1 John 4:[3] ...Jesus Christ is come in the flesh...

You do not see YOUR OWN ADDITION to Scripture?

 

[Happy]

Here is yet another vague post, it appears you are either being vague intentionally or you are talking past BB. Another way to say what BB said is that the Holy Ghost has power but "is" a person. It is improper to say the Holy Ghost is a force or is power. That is what the Holy Ghost does and has but it is not who He is. Do you agree?

Person ~
a human being regarded as an individual.

Gen 1
[2] And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

the Spirit of God ~

So, is this according to you....one Person or two Persons (Spirit and God).....
And what is the purpose of the Spirit of God presence?

 

[Yeshua1]

Doesn't scripture notify you Jesus came forth out from God, in Heaven?
Doesn't scripture notify you the Power of the Holy Spirit came upon Mary's VIRGIN womb?
Doesn't scripture notify you Mary became conceived (pregnant) in her Womb?

Doesn't the Law of nature notify you women are pregnant for 9 months?
Doesn't scripture notify you according to the LAW, when Jesus came forth out of Mary's womb...
......something ALIVE came forth from something ALIVE, and He was called BORN?
Doesn't scripture notify you according to the LAW, Jesus was Mary's LEGAL Son?

Doesn't scripture notify you, JESUS came to FULFILL the LAW?
Did Jesus fulfill the LAW of mankind?
In Mary's womb, 9 months? came forth out of her womb, called born?
According to Jewish Law, (of the Mother), the child is Jewish? the Mother IS His LEGAL Mother?
According to Jewish Law, (of the Father), the child IS the LEGAL Son of the Father?
According to Roman Law, (the Mother and Father), are the child's LEGAL Parents?

Doesn't Jesus fulfilling THOSE LAWS, MAKE HIM, (a Jew, with Jewish parents ) eligible to LAWFULLY SIT on King David's (everlasting) THRONE?

You spend so much time simply repeating yourself, calling me names, trying to MAKE the Lord of lords equal with you; a human made of dust, instead of reading what scripture says, and seeking God FOR HIS understanding.

The bible teaches to us that Jesus was sinless human....

 

[Yeshua1]

1 John 4:[3] ...Jesus Christ is come in the flesh...

You do not see YOUR OWN ADDITION to Scripture?

If not as human, what was he then?

 

[Yeshua1]

​

I say this directly to you.

I have provided you explicit Scriptures that my view, trust and belief parallels.

You have made your personal opinions clear, with your snarky implications and comments, that you do not agree with my belief in the scriptures as I explicitly paralleled my belief toward.



And precisely what is your ignorant purpose for quoting me scripture that I have already made abundantly clear I have already fulfilled?

You presenting yourself as my teacher is laughable.
You somehow think a person who surpassed the obstacles along the path, trusting Christ, following after Christ, in fellowship with Christ, should fall back behind you? follow after you? mimic your words? be like you, without understanding?
and pretend the remedy for obstacles on the path is to shove others out of the way, and give them disparaging comment as you attempt to further yourself along the path?

Seriously, you should stop parroting what has tickled your ears and start a discovery mission of what it means to do the WILL of the Father.

Because you are not alone. Jesus gives an express example of those whose understanding sorely lacked, and thought all they required was Jesus' name to do the Fathers WILL.

Matt 7
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matt 15
[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Prov 3
[5] Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Don't lecture me on where to put my trust.
I have made it abundantly clear where I put my trust.
Don't lecture me on whose understanding I should lean on.
I have made it abundantly clear whose understanding I lean on.

Your carnal minded lectures mean nothing to me.

Rom 8

1. [7]....the carnal mind is enmity against God:

Your revelations disagrees with the scriptures, so are not from God!

 

[Happy]

The bible teaches to us that Jesus was sinless human....

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Sinless Lord from Heaven.

 

[Happy]

If not as human, what was he then?

He Was, IS and Will be; King of kings, and Lord of lords.

Heb.13

1. [8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

1Tim.6

1. [15] Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;