Baltimore is a democrat problem, not america’s problem

[JonC]

Who is in control of the money? Study your history. Look at the Forbes 400 in the US.:thumbs:

:laugh: I like our short replies...at least we actually read them. But you are still speaking of ownership, Zaac. Control is a major part of the issue....but not necessarily control "of the money."

 

[Zaac]

:laugh: I like our short replies...at least we actually read them. But you are still speaking of ownership, Zaac. Control is a major part of the issue....but not necessarily control "of the money."

I like the short answers too. :laugh:

Yes I'm speaking of the ownership because that's where the money is. These cesspools are kept the way they are because the people with the money want it that way.

 

[JonC]

I like the short answers too. :laugh:

Yes I'm speaking of the ownership because that's where the money is. These cesspools are kept the way they are because the people with the money want it that way.

I agree that corporate greed contributes. But those “advocates” that we speak of are under a greater guilt. "Liberation" would be to them a loss as they are essentially oppressors. I agree that a lack of opportunities facilitate an atmosphere of hopelessness. But hopelessness does not justify immorality. Where I disagree is with the unfounded conclusion that these are “victims” who are now “entitled” to take from others what is not theirs (thievery). (sorry for the length...I'll keep it shorter next time :smilewinkgrin.

 

[Zaac]

I agree that corporate greed contributes. But those “advocates” that we speak of are under a greater guilt. "Liberation" would be to them a loss as they are essentially oppressors. I agree that a lack of opportunities facilitate an atmosphere of hopelessness. But hopelessness does not justify immorality.

I agree. But when the people who control everything don't care that people are mired in hopelessness and they are being extinguished, they have figured out that this behavior is the only thing the majority hears. It may reinforce what a lot of the majority already thinks, but they and the rest of the world are now listening to what the minorities in these cities are saying.

People all around the world are looking at the same things that they saw in the 60s. The movie Selma came out recently. And it showed that nothing really started to be done until there was violence.

Where I disagree is with the unfounded conclusion that these are “victims” who are now “entitled” to take from others what is not theirs (thievery). (sorry for the length...I'll keep it shorter next time :smilewinkgrin.

I don't think anyone is okay with that. But when you're frustrated and no one listens to you as you're mired in hopelessness and being exterminated, being moral is probably the last thing on your mind.

 

[JonC]

I agree. But when the people who control everything don't care that people are mired in hopelessness and they are being extinguished, they have figured out that this behavior is the only thing the majority hears. It may reinforce what a lot of the majority already thinks, but they and the rest of the world are now listening to what the minorities in these cities are saying.

People all around the world are looking at the same things that they saw in the 60s. The movie Selma came out recently. And it showed that nothing really started to be done until there was violence.


I don't think anyone is okay with that. But when you're frustrated and no one listens to you as you're mired in hopelessness and being exterminated, being moral is probably the last thing on your mind.

I agree. The problem is that the message conveyed is not unanimously beneficial to those struggling in a hopeless situation. Selma is a good example. Things were changing apart from violence, and in many ways the violence made things worse. But it did bring racial issues to the surface as a more urgent and pressing matter. Unfortunately injustice always accompanies such violence and it becomes impossible to purge that violence from the undercurrent that survives. If that were not so, then I believe you would have a better point. But the violence that we see today is directly related to that of the past….it’s just resurfacing again.

 

[Revmitchell]

Fox News is reporting — citing a senior law enforcement source who spoke with correspondent Leland Vittert — that Democratic Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake ordered police to allow rioters to loot stores Monday night, saying, “Let them loot, it’s only property."


http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/29/f...police-to-stand-down-and-let-them-loot-video/

 

[Zaac]

I agree. The problem is that the message conveyed is not unanimously beneficial to those struggling in a hopeless situation. Selma is a good example. Things were changing apart from violence, and in many ways the violence made things worse.

I disagree. LBJ was not going to move forward with voting rights. It was a series of violent acts against Blacks whereby they were killed and beaten and the whole world saw it, that really got things moving for Civil Rights.

But it did bring racial issues to the surface as a more urgent and pressing matter. Unfortunately injustice always accompanies such violence and it becomes impossible to purge that violence from the undercurrent that survives. If that were not so, then I believe you would have a better point. But the violence that we see today is directly related to that of the past….it’s just resurfacing again.

But it's resurfacing because the same things that were being done to Blacks in the past is being repeated today.

 

[righteousdude2]

Bteitbart is a sensationalistic news source, often exaggerating and embellishing.

Examples and links supporting your claims would be helpful to all of us who know little about Breitbart! Thanks! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Bro. Curtis]

If you can't tell that by reading it I can't help you.

 

[JonC]

But it's resurfacing because the same things that were being done to Blacks in the past is being repeated today.

I agree that the violence made America take notice. Violence was not, however, the springboard that thrust the movement forward. Violence marked the frustration of a people who realized strides forward were gaining little ground. Here is where we disagree. Saying that racial issues today are resurfacing because the situation of the past is resurfacing or repeating itself is wrong. It cheapens what that generation went through and misplaces focus on the socioeconomic issues that need to be addressed today. Then it was a matter of recognizing equality (in persons, rights, etc.) but now it is a backlash against perceived injustices. There certainly are issues that need to be addressed, but we disagree on what exactly those issues are. When I look at Selma (reality, not the movie) I see a people justly striving for social change. When I look at Baltimore I see a reaction to socioeconomic issues and a sense of entitlement that was not in the forefront of the equal rights movement. In Selma they fought for equality. In Baltimore they fight as expression. This does not mean that there are no issues to address (there are many). But we need to take care to address those issues instead of allowing our own racial prejudices cloud the water.

 

[Zaac]

I agree that the violence made America take notice. Violence was not, however, the springboard that thrust the movement forward. Violence marked the frustration of a people who realized strides forward were gaining little ground. Here is where we disagree. Saying that racial issues today are resurfacing because the situation of the past is resurfacing or repeating itself is wrong. It cheapens what that generation went through and misplaces focus on the socioeconomic issues that need to be addressed today.

Jon, if you have the opportunity, go talk to some of the people in these communities who lived through Jim Crow. They are going to overwhelmingly tell you that this is the same thing that they had to deal with 50 and 60 years ago.

They're getting the same "I don't care, they are just violent animals, want to blame their issues on everybody else" responses that the Civil Rights leaders did.

Then it was a matter of recognizing equality (in persons, rights, etc.) but now it is a backlash against perceived injustices.

Inequality was a perceived injustice during Jim Crow and slavery. SO injustice is still at the root.

There certainly are issues that need to be addressed, but we disagree on what exactly those issues are. When I look at Selma (reality, not the movie) I see a people justly striving for social change. When I look at Baltimore I see a reaction socioeconomic issues and a sense of entitlement that was not in the forefront of the equal rights movement.

I believe this is where White and Black divide. Socioeconomic issues are definitely part of the reason folks are complaining. And I don't know why white America thinks it's "A sense of entitlement" for Black and Brown people to want the same access to the things that Whites have access to.

But the systematic killing of unarmed Black men by police has nothing to do with socioeconomics or entitlement. But rather with social conditioning about the worth of Black life.

When across the board, you've got a majority of white people believing that Blacks are more violent, lazy, aren't concerned with much other than a violent culture, fascinated with guns, gangsta rap, gangs, drugs, and riots, and entitlement, then there arises an issue in how their lives are viewed.


So what are these entitlements that white people believe Blacks to be after?

In Baltimore they fight as expression. This does not mean that there are no issues to address (there are many). But we need to take care to address those issues instead of allowing our own racial prejudices cloud the water.

Historically, people rioted when they didn't have a voice. Listen to what the people in Baltimore are saying. They are repeatedly saying we have asked for help but nobody will listen to us.

But please help me out with these entitlements that many believe Blacks want.

 

[JonC]

Jon, if you have the opportunity...

But please help me out with these entitlements that many believe Blacks want.

Just because some believe it feels the same doesn’t mean that it is the same. What I mean by racism via the “advocates,” BTW, is the assumption that there are “systematic killings” of black men. Each incident that has been introduced into the public spotlight has been determined as an “unjust killing” by people alien to the event and prior to an examination of the facts. This is racism (and from posts in the past, it is racism on your part as well). These deaths are not systematic, but rather systemic.

What I mean by entitlement is not that one is entitled to a particular thing, but rather than there is a sense of entitlement within American culture today. People believe that they should have something because they deserve something. I do not mean this directed to any particular race, but to our culture in general.

 

[Zaac]

Just because some believe it feels the same doesn’t mean that it is the same. What I mean by racism via the “advocates,” BTW, is the assumption that there are “systematic killings” of black men. Each incident that has been introduced into the public spotlight has been determined as an “unjust killing” by people alien to the event and prior to an examination of the facts. This is racism (and from posts in the past, it is racism on your part as well). These deaths are not systematic, but rather systemic.

I believe I have referred to it as systemic racism and racial prejudice. I even started a thread with that title.

And I agree with them. There have been a lot of unjust killings of unarmed black men. I believe the Walter Scott video highlighted what Blacks have said has been going on in police departments across the nation for decades. And when, like in that case, officers are coached to say "I feared for my life" when he was videoed running away from the cop tells me and a lot of people that cops all across this nation have been getting away with murder.

As I've mentioned before, white people all over the country were upset about black youth running up and knocking white people out and then fleeing. The indignation was definitely righteous. But I don't think I heard of them killing anyone.

Yet police officers seem to discriminantly be KILLING unarmed black people, and white people are wondering why they are making so much noise.

What I mean by entitlement is not that one is entitled to a particular thing, but rather than there is a sense of entitlement within American culture today. People believe that they should have something because they deserve something. I do not mean this directed to any particular race, but to our culture in general.

But entitled to what? I've heard white people on FOX say that about Blacks. And I've heard people on this board say that about Blacks. So I'm just wondering what it is folks think that Blacks think they are entitled to?

 

[JonC]

I believe I have referred to it as systemic racism and racial prejudice. I even started a thread with that title....


But entitled to what? I've heard white people on FOX say that about Blacks. And I've heard people on this board say that about Blacks. So I'm just wondering what it is folks think that Blacks think they are entitled to?

I don't know what FOX says Black people are entitled to. When one speaks of "white privilege" then they are implying a sense of entitlement. I am saying that we have created a culture of entitlement (and I have not linked this to any race as it is not really a factor).

I’m moving on, but wanted to address this one last time. You have brought up some good points, although we disagree as to both the problem and the solution. If you jump to the conclusion that a white officer killing a black man is racially motivated (or systematic) then you are just as racist as a white officer who quickly mis-accesses the situation based on the color of another’s skin. Racism is racism. A society cannot provide justice for past injustices. Neither should they implement policies based on race (racism, affirmative action,…whatever you wish to call it) as you cannot combat racism with more racism. It perpetuates the problem. All that we can do is strive for a culture that is racially blind. I know that this is unpopular with many but until we stop seeing skin color and start seeing people created in God’s image then there will always be racial issues and injustices (on all sides). That’s what we get in a fallen world.

 

[Zaac]

I don't know what FOX says Black people are entitled to. When one speaks of "white privilege" then they are implying a sense of entitlement. I am saying that we have created a culture of entitlement (and I have not linked this to any race as it is not really a factor).

No. When I speak of white privilege, I'm speaking of...well let me give you a definition that I agree with from someone else.

White privilege refers to any advantage, opportunity, benefit, head start, or general protection from negative societal mistreatment, which persons deemed white will typically enjoy, but which others will generally not enjoy. These benefits can be material (such as greater opportunity in the labor market, or greater net worth, due to a history in which whites had the ability to accumulate wealth to a greater extent than persons of color), social (such as presumptions of competence, creditworthiness, law-abidingness, intelligence, etc.) or psychological (such as not having to worry about triggering negative stereotypes, rarely having to feel out of place, not having to worry about racial profiling, etc.).

So in that regard, yes, there is an inherent entitlement but on the part of most white people.

If I say to white people that they have an advantage over people of color when it comes to wealth accumulation, the majority will swear up and down that they have had no such thing. But Pew Research shows that even after the recent recession that the average non-Hispanic white household had a median income of $142,000 vs $11,000 for black households.

That's a whopping 130,000 difference. What on earth could author that kind of disparity?

Home ownership leads the way, followed by education(with like degrees still producing 5% more wealth for Whites than Blacks) and then inheritances.

Many folks don't know that the Federal Housing Administration, helped generate much of the wealth that so many white families enjoy today. It helped make it possible for millions of average white Americans, but not others, to own a home for the first time.

The government set up a national neighborhood appraisal system, explicitly tying mortgage eligibility to race. Integrated communities were by that very act considered a financial risk and made ineligible for home loans. Look up redlining when you get the chance.

Between 1934 and 1962, the federal government backed $120 billion of home loans. More than 98% went to whites.

That wealth has been passed to the next generation of whites in terms of education, parents being able to assist with a down payment of their kid's homes, etc.

Blacks didn't get that opportunity and being able to either use or pass along that wealth to their families today is part of the privilege of being white in the US.

SO just from the standpoint of wealth, there really is a privilege in being white. It's not absolute and the same for everyone.

But passed down wealth has given Whites a leg up.

I’m moving on, but wanted to address this one last time. You have brought up some good points, although we disagree as to both the problem and the solution. If you jump to the conclusion that a white officer killing a black man is racially motivated (or systematic) then you are just as racist as a white officer who quickly mis-accesses the situation based on the color of another’s skin. Racism is racism.

Again, I have said it's systemic as the policing system across the country seems to be geared towards marginalizing the lives of young and old black men.

One of the basic tenets of discrimination law is disparate impact. A practice can be considered discriminatory and illegal if it has a disproportionate adverse impact on persons in a protected class. Race is a protected class. So if a police department is practicing something where something is overwhelmingly and disproportionately happening to someone in a protected class, it is deemed on the surface or "prima facie" discriminatory.

And I believe that a case can be made that this is happening all over the United States to black men. Sure there will be in some instances other mitigating circumstances. But the overwhelming number of departments are showing a bias in killing black men.

A society cannot provide justice for past injustices.

We've done it plenty of times.

Neither should they implement policies based on race (racism, affirmative action,…whatever you wish to call it) as you cannot combat racism with more racism.

What's your suggestion to "level the playing field"? When Blacks and Hispanics don't have the same leg up that Whites do in education, housing and employment, the result is what you're seeing in Baltimore.

So what do you suggest be done as again, they have been crying out for help, but nobody seems to be listening.

It perpetuates the problem.

The status quo also perpetuates the problem.

All that we can do is strive for a culture that is racially blind.

Not gonna happen ESPECIALLY when, as this board testifies, even God's people aren't racially blind.

I know that this is unpopular with many but until we stop seeing skin color and start seeing people created in God’s image then there will always be racial issues and injustices (on all sides). That’s what we get in a fallen world.

It's hard for people to believe you see them in God's image when you're prospering and they are struggling to live. It's hard for people to believe that you see them in God's image when they are being killed and others allowed to live.

So if the people of GOD are treating them this way about what is going on, where are they supposed to look to for hope?

 

[JonC]

Except for the white part, your definition of white privilege sounds a lot like affirmative action.

 

[JonC]

Zaac,
I apologize for the quickness of my response. I didn’t have time to study your comments in detail and therefore did not give it the attention that it warranted.

No. When I speak of white privilege, I'm speaking of...well let me give you a definition that I agree with from someone else.

I understand the concept of “white privilege,” but our society itself demonstrates it does not exist (it is a figment). That is not to say that some people discriminate. The reason “white privilege” in theory is elusive in practice is that it’s solely linked to race. The “white man” has the advantage because he is white….yet there are opportunities extended to minorities that exclude white people. I had a dear friend from Africa who expected me to be a racist because I was white, and she certainly treated my wife and I differently until she knew us. Are these examples of “black privilege”? Have people who believe in the concept of “white privilege” actually spoken with white people who cannot catch a break….who work two jobs at minimum wage and still can’t feed their children? Here you seem to project your own racism on a people. There is no inherent entitlement on the part of most white people (there is an inherent entitlement on the part of many….but race is the determining factor only if we look on with racist eyes). It is a people issue….not a race issue….except where the profiteers are concerned.

If I say to white people that they have an advantage over people of color when it comes to wealth accumulation,….
That wealth has been passed to the next generation of whites in terms of education, parents being able to assist with a down payment of their kid's homes, etc.

But the issue is not race. It is an economic….and cultural….issue. It is a social issue. But I can show you predominately white neighborhoods where the people are in the exact same position. In other words, the government did not turn down home loans because a man was black. They turned down the loan because of economic indicators regarding repayment. Your point regarding an inherited disadvantage when compared to some white people who come from rich families is taken and understood. But when you speak of wealth being passed to the next generation in terms of education you must also recognize the immaterial cultural expectations that are passed down as well. What some people want they cannot have because they are unwilling to change for achievement. Culture needs to be addressed.

But passed down wealth has given Whites a leg up.

I’m white. Where’s my “leg up”? I have a black friend who went to college on a minority scholarship. His grades were not better than mine, but I joined the military and worked to pay for college. I don’t hold any animosity towards him….or even the system….it is what it is (although I suppose you’d call it “black privilege”).

Again, I have said it's systemic as the policing system across the country seems to be geared towards marginalizing the lives of young and old black men.

But the systematic killing of unarmed Black men by police has nothing to do with socioeconomics or entitlement.

If you are saying systemic and not systematic, then I agree. There are systemic issues that affect races differently. Some are rooted in prejudices and others are self-inflected (if we want to continue stereotyping a race of people). Statists and experience also plays a role in how people react (especially police officers). You are right that there are systemic issues.

We've done it plenty of times. (Your reply to my comment that society cannot provide justice for past injustices).

Nonsense, we never have provided justice for past injustices….we have addressed the issue and provided something, but not justice.

What's your suggestion to "level the playing field"? When Blacks and Hispanics don't have the same leg up that Whites do in education, housing and employment, the result is what you're seeing in Baltimore.

The playing field has never been level regardless of race. Those who want a “level playing field” are racists who seek to advance because of race. That’s racism.

So what do you suggest be done as again, they have been crying out for help, but nobody seems to be listening.

That is the issue. I don’t think that we advocate a deeper racism to try to cover perceived (or actual) racism….that’s hypocrisy. I don’t think that we blame another race….that’s foolishness. It is going to take change BUT it is going to take change on all involved. The police will not stop expecting the young black man who flees, turns and reaches for something to have a gun when their experience teaches them that this is the probable outcome. It is systemic to our culture. The white police officer is trying to provide for a family that he wants to be able to return to after his shift. It would be foolish to “bet against the odds,” but it is racially motivated not to take that chance. The black community will assume that the officer fired because he is a racist (granted, it was racially influenced) even if the young man intended to shoot. They are, after all, victims (and they are…but they are also victims of their own culture). Change cannot be unilateral, but neither side is willing to take responsibility or consider change.

Not gonna happen ESPECIALLY when, as this board testifies, even God's people aren't racially blind.

Immorality never demands immorality in return. Perhaps those throwing stones would behave differently if they were influenced more by the Church and less by the profiteers.

It's hard for people to believe you see them in God's image when you're prospering and they are struggling to live. It's hard for people to believe that you see them in God's image when they are being killed and others allowed to live.
So if the people of GOD are treating them this way about what is going on, where are they supposed to look to for hope?

I agree. The Church that ignores holiness, that ignores living the “mind of Christ,” ignores the only evidence that validates the gospel to the world. I know a lot of white people. I know a lot of black people. I don’t know of any who actually live in the milieu you describe. But you are right that the Church should be the Church.