Bapticostals

[Jared Hanley]

Grudem has taken from solid systematic theologies,re wrote and re-defined things in opposition to the historic faith.

it is the younger crowd who is losing its grip on scripture.No one speaks in tongues today, no one prays in tongues today....no one.
The rhyming noises are just emotional excess. Useless time wasting like catholics praying a rosary.?Your pastor is not reformed if he goes outside of scripture.

I am by no means leaving out some of the godly cessationists of the past or even some of those of the present by making this statement. But, I know that I have the fire of God. One of the ways that I know that for myself is that I spend a lot of time worshiping God. A lot of the Charismatics that I know are falling in love with Jesus while a lot of the Baptists that Iknow are dead, they just have dead orthodoxy. The Pharisees knew the scriptures but they didn't know God. J.I. Packer (who was sympathetic toward tthe ministry of John Wimber and is also known as the last Puritan) says in his book "Knowing God" that you can know a lot about God but not really know God. That's the danger. I would urge all of you here, don't let that be you! I'm not saying that you have to be Charismatic to know God or even a continuationist, but there is an intimacy there that can be had that I think quite a few Charismatics know quite well.

 

[GFlanagan3]

I am by no means leaving out some of the godly cessationists of the past or even some of those of the present by making this statement. But, I know that I have the fire of God.
One of the ways that I know that for myself is that I spend a lot of time worshiping God..

How do you know that you are worshiping Him in the way He wishes?

A lot of the Charismatics that I know are falling in love with Jesus while a lot of the Baptists that Iknow are dead, they just have dead orthodoxy..

How can one be true to Scripture (orthodox) and be 'dead'?

The Pharisees knew the scriptures but they didn't know God. J.I. Packer (who was sympathetic toward tthe ministry of John Wimber and is also known as the last Puritan) says in his book "Knowing God" that you can know a lot about God but not really know God.

I am not sure that argument holds water. The Pharisees also added to the Scripture and thereby held people back from Truth. Would you conceed that adding some 'experience' and in some cases making it a prerequisite for 'holiness' , is at least extra-Scriptural?

That's the danger. I would urge all of you here, don't let that be you! I'm not saying that you have to be Charismatic to know God or even a continuationist, but there is an intimacy there that can be had that I think quite a few Charismatics know quite well.

I am sorry , I don't see your point. The Charasmatics I have know have had an 'intimacy', perhaps, but it is not what I would want. Many seemed to think they were specifically God's Message for today, totally ignoring the sufficiency of Scripture. I hope you don't see my words as harsh or argumentative, but rather seeing that I seek understanding and clarity. It does, however feel to me, that you advocate this feeling over Scripture.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I am by no means leaving out some of the godly cessationists of the past or even some of those of the present by making this statement. But, I know that I have the fire of God. One of the ways that I know that for myself is that I spend a lot of time worshiping God. A lot of the Charismatics that I know are falling in love with Jesus while a lot of the Baptists that Iknow are dead, they just have dead orthodoxy. The Pharisees knew the scriptures but they didn't know God. J.I. Packer (who was sympathetic toward tthe ministry of John Wimber and is also known as the last Puritan) says in his book "Knowing God" that you can know a lot about God but not really know God. That's the danger. I would urge all of you here, don't let that be you! I'm not saying that you have to be Charismatic to know God or even a continuationist, but there is an intimacy there that can be had that I think quite a few Charismatics know quite well.

There is also "strange fire"! John Wimber is a heretic. Are you confusing worship with fanaticism? There is a difference between worship and vain worship and that difference is between obedience and conformity with the scriptures and disobedience to the Scriptures.

Every major Pentecostal leader has proven to be a false prophet and that indicates the kind of spirit behind the charismatic/Pentecostal movement.

Wayne Grudem takes the convenient position that New Testament Prophets are different than Old Testament Prophets and therefore they cannot be made subject to the Biblical tests of a prophet because unlike the O.T. Prophets their prophesies are a mixture of "human words" with divine words and not equal to the scriptures. He falsley claims that no New Testament Prophet ever utters the words "Thus saith the Lord" (p. 1055) but apparently never read Acts 21:10-11. However, Pentecostal prophesyings are subject to the tests of a prophet and every last one of them has failed the Biblical tests. Hence, the spirit behind them is self-evident and unholy.

He also is wrong, confused and misrepresents the term "prophesy" in 1 Corinthians 14. Paul makes a clear and evident distinction between what "ALL" the members could do "prophesy" in the general sense of the term of commenting, explaining and interpreting scriptures or speaking forth the Word (I Cor. 14:3,24) and the office of a prophet who provided such revelation (I Cor. 14:29-30). The prophet's are limited to "two or three" whereas those who "prophesy" in the general sense are not limited.

I believe the Pentecostal movement is demonically empowered and led by false prophets and the evidence is the abundance of false prophecies (Deut. 13:1-5; 18:19-20; I Cor. 14:37; etc.).

 

[Aaron]

It appears he's dropping a bunch of names that he thinks will lend credence among Baptists to his position.

I am Baptist.

I don't follow the ministries of any of the people he's mentioned. Not even Piper's. In fact, there's only one man in recent years I've followed, and that's my pastor, and if there are any ministries I've been impressed with, it's those that have the witness of history and the Church behind them: Calvin, Luther, Spurgeon, etc.

Now, Jared, what did those men say about gifts?

 

[Tom Butler]

Jared sounds a familiar theme.

Charismatics have a fire, a passion for God.

Non-Charismatics are spiritually cold, no fire, going through the motions.

It's spiritual elitism, well honed.

 

[Amy.G]

Oops. Double post.

 

[Amy.G]

Jared sounds a familiar theme.

Charismatics have a fire, a passion for God.

Non-Charismatics are spiritually cold, no fire, going through the motions.

It's spiritual elitism, well honed.

I hate to say it, but I think you're right. Charismatics that I have known always say they have experienced something the rest of us haven't.

(I have been involved in Charismatic churches and left it behind, thank goodness)

 

[Tom Butler]

An acquaintance of mine embraced the Charismatic movement. In a conversation, I referred to him as a Pentecostal. He was quick to correct me, saying he was not a Pentecostal.

The impression I got was that his group of charismatics did not want to be associated with a group with less education and on a lower socio-economic scale.

The only difference I can detect is that charismatics don't handle snakes.

 

[glfredrick]

After being in and with close to 50 Baptist churches (and a bunch of others) over my years, I've seen a similar trait in almost all of them.

Virtually every one thinks that they are the only church with a big B in their name that has "rediscovered" the Holy Spirit. It is almost like, "Shhhh.... Don't tell anyone that we believe in the powerful works of the Holy Spirit, they may ask us to stop being Baptists."

I'm sure there are churches out there somewhere that totally ignore the work(s) of the Spirit, but not as many as everyone purports.

On the other hand, there are also a bunch of churches where the "Spectacular gifts" of the Spirit are the things actually worshiped. That is a bigger problem in my mind.

 

[Jared Hanley]

Jared sounds a familiar theme.

Charismatics have a fire, a passion for God.

Non-Charismatics are spiritually cold, no fire, going through the motions.

It's spiritual elitism, well honed.

There are many many ceassationists that I have loads of respect for. Most if not all of the Puritans were cessationists. However, many of the cessationists of our day seem to not be pursuing revival. Some of the cessationists of 300 years ago like George Whitefield were okay with people shaking and falling to the floor. I can't think of any modern cessationist pastor that would be okay with that kind of thing happening in his church. John Piper said that back in the 1980's he took some of the members of his church to John Wimber's church, the Anaheim Vineyard and he also said that some of his people were on the floor. But, he's no cessationist.

 

[Jared Hanley]

An acquaintance of mine embraced the Charismatic movement. In a conversation, I referred to him as a Pentecostal. He was quick to correct me, saying he was not a Pentecostal.

The impression I got was that his group of charismatics did not want to be associated with a group with less education and on a lower socio-economic scale.

The only difference I can detect is that charismatics don't handle snakes.

Most Pentecostals don't handle snakes. In fact, I don't know any who do and I live in East Tennessee where there are some churches that practice that. Most snake handlers don't call themselves Pentecostal. I know because there were some on my mom's side of the family. Most of the ones I've known call themselves "mountain holiness" or simply "holiness". This is not to be confused with the Wesleyan Holiness movement which is something altogether different.

 

[Tom Butler]

Most Pentecostals don't handle snakes. In fact, I don't know any who do and I live in East Tennessee where there are some churches that practice that. Most snake handlers don't call themselves Pentecostal. I know because there were some on my mom's side of the family. Most of the ones I've known call themselves "mountain holiness" or simply "holiness". This is not to be confused with the Wesleyan Holiness movement which is something altogether different.

Thanks for making the distinction between Pentecostal and Holiness.

 

[patharris]

My perspective

If I might add a perspective from someone who has been both Pentecostal and Baptist, and is now Baptist.

I’m over 50 and have been either a member of a Pentecostal or Baptist church for the bulk of my life.
I love them both for different reasons.
I like the Pentecostal church because of the worship and music, and the freedom I perceive in the way they worship.
I love the Baptist church because of the straight forward way that the message is preached and received, and the people.
I have found that in a comparison of the two that Baptist are not as likely to be as vocal in their opposition to Pentecostals, as Pentecostals are with Baptist.

Here’s another thing I have realized this week, Pentecostals believe they have a greater lock on faith then anyone. A ministers meeting this week led me to believe otherwise.

I’ve heard leader talk about need chairs for church plant and the same say having someone call and offer chairs. I heard ministers talk about God directing them to put out a greater number of chairs then before for a church plant and having every seat filled. I have seen my own church (SBC) pray and anoint people for healing in their life and the altars filled with people seeking salvation.

The Pentecostal church makes everyone believe that they are the only ones who believe in healing, and having a great faith. My experience is that it is just as real in the Baptist church, they just don’t put it up in lights.

One more thing, on a personal note, I was just given an opportunity by my church to take over a mission site as the leader. We hold services each week in a low income area, with me getting an opportunity to preach each week. I’m am eternally grateful for that chance to minister.

And yes, there was a long chat about my Pentecostal background, before I was given the site to lead. LOL

 

[drfuss]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Hanley
Most Pentecostals don't handle snakes. In fact, I don't know any who do and I live in East Tennessee where there are some churches that practice that. Most snake handlers don't call themselves Pentecostal. I know because there were some on my mom's side of the family. Most of the ones I've known call themselves "mountain holiness" or simply "holiness". This is not to be confused with the Wesleyan Holiness movement which is something altogether different.

Tom writes: "Thanks for making the distinction between Pentecostal and Holiness."

Since there appears to be a tendency on here of broad brushing of what happens in a few churches of a group to apply it to other churches of the same or similiar group, it should be noted that most churches that consider themselves "holiness" do not handle snakes.

 

[drfuss]

If I might add a perspective from someone who has been both Pentecostal and Baptist, and is now Baptist.

I’m over 50 and have been either a member of a Pentecostal or Baptist church for the bulk of my life.
I love them both for different reasons.
I like the Pentecostal church because of the worship and music, and the freedom I perceive in the way they worship.
I love the Baptist church because of the straight forward way that the message is preached and received, and the people.
I have found that in a comparison of the two that Baptist are not as likely to be as vocal in their opposition to Pentecostals, as Pentecostals are with Baptist.

Here’s another thing I have realized this week, Pentecostals believe they have a greater lock on faith then anyone. A ministers meeting this week led me to believe otherwise.

I’ve heard leader talk about need chairs for church plant and the same say having someone call and offer chairs. I heard ministers talk about God directing them to put out a greater number of chairs then before for a church plant and having every seat filled. I have seen my own church (SBC) pray and anoint people for healing in their life and the altars filled with people seeking salvation.

The Pentecostal church makes everyone believe that they are the only ones who believe in healing, and having a great faith. My experience is that it is just as real in the Baptist church, they just don’t put it up in lights.

One more thing, on a personal note, I was just given an opportunity by my church to take over a mission site as the leader. We hold services each week in a low income area, with me getting an opportunity to preach each week. I’m am eternally grateful for that chance to minister.

And yes, there was a long chat about my Pentecostal background, before I was given the site to lead. LOL

I also have been a member of pentecostal churches for many years and am now a member of a SBC Baptist church. While my experience is similar to yours in some areas, it is different in other areas.

patharris writes: "I have found that in a comparison of the two that Baptist are not as likely to be as vocal in their opposition to Pentecostals, as Pentecostals are with Baptist."
My experience is just the opposite of yours on this one in that I find that Baptists are much more critical of Pentecostals than the other way around.

Both Baptists and Pentecostals have some misconceptions of what the other believes as a group. There is a tendency in both cases to take what a small group in each group believes and broadbrushing it to apply to the whole group; and never checking it out to see if it applies to the whole group.

I have found both Baptists and Pentecostals are about equally dedicated to the Lord and His work.

Considering devine healing, some (but not all) Pentecostals get caught up in the WOF movement; Baptist are less lidely to get caught up in the WOF movement.

 

[RAdam]

The most important question isn't whether or not those particular gifts of the Holy Ghost have ceased, but rather what was their purpose? God is not random. Everything He does has a purpose. God is the most practical being in existence. If God gave those gifts to the church, He gave them for a reason. Thankfully, the NT spells that reason out.

Hebrews 2:3, 4 - "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heart him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will."

Those gifts bore them witness. They were given to authenticate their message. It's pretty easy to see why this was necessary. These gifts were something given to the church during her infancy to help her along. Now we have something better - we have the complete record of scripture. Now that's we've grown up, we don't need those childish things anymore.

My challenge to people who think they have the power to heal people - get busy. I've got a few hospitals I'd like you to visit. Peter was so blessed that they lined the streets with sick people so that perhaps his shadow would fall on them. If you have the gift of healing, you should have similar success.

My challenge to people who think they can speak in tongues - do it. Speaking in tongues isn't saying some undiscernable slop. When people spoke in tongues, they spoke in languages they didn't know, but someone in the audience did know. People were amazed that they heard ignorant Galileans speaking to them in their native tongue. Paul specifically said that if he prayed in an unknown tongue then "my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful." Quit putting on a show and do it like they did in scripture. God didn't put on shows. He blessed these men to do something they couldn't have otherwise done to show they were sent and authorized by Him.

 

[drfuss]

The most important question isn't whether or not those particular gifts of the Holy Ghost have ceased, but rather what was their purpose? God is not random. Everything He does has a purpose. God is the most practical being in existence. If God gave those gifts to the church, He gave them for a reason. Thankfully, the NT spells that reason out.

Hebrews 2:3, 4 - "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heart him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will."

Those gifts bore them witness. They were given to authenticate their message. It's pretty easy to see why this was necessary. These gifts were something given to the church during her infancy to help her along. Now we have something better - we have the complete record of scripture. Now that's we've grown up, we don't need those childish things anymore.

My challenge to people who think they have the power to heal people - get busy. I've got a few hospitals I'd like you to visit. Peter was so blessed that they lined the streets with sick people so that perhaps his shadow would fall on them. If you have the gift of healing, you should have similar success.

My challenge to people who think they can speak in tongues - do it. Speaking in tongues isn't saying some undiscernable slop. When people spoke in tongues, they spoke in languages they didn't know, but someone in the audience did know. People were amazed that they heard ignorant Galileans speaking to them in their native tongue. Paul specifically said that if he prayed in an unknown tongue then "my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful." Quit putting on a show and do it like they did in scripture. God didn't put on shows. He blessed these men to do something they couldn't have otherwise done to show they were sent and authorized by Him.

The above is a good example of what I said in my last post as restated below:
"My experience is just the opposite of yours on this one in that I find that Baptists are much more critical of Pentecostals than the other way around."

 

[Tom Butler]

My challenge to people who think they have the power to heal people - get busy. I've got a few hospitals I'd like you to visit. Peter was so blessed that they lined the streets with sick people so that perhaps his shadow would fall on them. If you have the gift of healing, you should have similar success.

Exactly. In fact, if one has the gift of healing, he can do it anytime, anywhere. No faith is required of the sick person, and in fact, no faith is required on the part of the healer. He can just do it. No laying on of hands, no blowing on them, nothing.

My challenge to people who think they can speak in tongues - do it. Speaking in tongues isn't saying some undiscernable slop. When people spoke in tongues, they spoke in languages they didn't know, but someone in the audience did know. People were amazed that they heard ignorant Galileans speaking to them in their native tongue. Paul specifically said that if he prayed in an unknown tongue then "my spirit prayeth but my understanding is unfruitful." Quit putting on a show and do it like they did in scripture. God didn't put on shows. He blessed these men to do something they couldn't have otherwise done to show they were sent and authorized by Him.

Exactly.

 

[DHK]

The above is a good example of what I said in my last post as restated below:
"My experience is just the opposite of yours on this one in that I find that Baptists are much more critical of Pentecostals than the other way around."

I didn't find it critical at all. It was the truth presented as a challenge. Can the Pentecostals measure up to the truth of the Word of God?

 

[drfuss]

I didn't find it critical at all. It was the truth presented as a challenge. Can the Pentecostals measure up to the truth of the Word of God?

This appears to be something like "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder". Both positions invoke the Word of God.