Baptism and Regeneration of the Spirit

[The Biblicist]

Titus 3:5; Ephesians 2:1,5,10; Jn. 3:3,5-6,7-8 all speak about the very same work of God - BRINGING SPIRITUAL DEAD men into SPIRITUAL UNION with God who is LIFE!

1. To "quicken" means to MAKE ALIVE by the Spirit
2. "Regeneration" refers to SECOND BIRTH by the Spirit
3. "born again" referes to SECOND BIRTH by the Spirit

This is the CREATIVE work of God "in Christ" and all who do not partake of this work are SPIRITUALLY DEAD regardless when they lived or shall live.

 

[Yeshua1]

Amazing! You just freely rebuke Jesus Christ and call him a liar, as he is the one who commanded (imperative mode) Nicodemus BEFORE Pentecost "MUST be born again" and then rebuked him for being ignorant of this fact as a "master" of Israel. He did this at the very outset of his ministry long before Pentecost.

You simply don't understand the basics of salvation. There is no salvation OUTSIDE of spiritual union with God through Christ for any man at any time anywhere (Jn. 14:6; Rom. 8:8-9). Salvation does not exist apart from regeneration as the fallen nature of man is spiritually dead and without quickening it cannot serve, please, worship, walk by faith or produce any other fruit of the Spirit.

You actually believe the Pre-pentecost man has a different fallen nature than the post-pentecost man and thus there is a different kind of salvation than for post-Pentecostal man.

Abraham was "IN CHRIST" (Gal. 3:17) and chosen "in him" before the Foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4; Rom. 8:28-32) as there is no salvation of any kind OUTSIDE of Christ.

You don't even understand the nature of regeneration and that is why you spout off this absolute nonsense. Adam died spriitually in the day, moment, second he sinned. He spiritually died instantly - meaning he was SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from God. Regeneration is quickening - giving spiritual life or bringing the human spirit back into spiritual union with God. That is its nature and to deny it is to deny Biblical salvation altogether, it is to pervert the salvation of the gospel and deny new birth is necesssay for "man"! Jesus said, except "A MAN" any man, all men, Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Nicodemus "MUST" be born again or there is NO SALVATION at all. This is what Romans 8:8-9 explicitly teaches in black and white without any post- or pre-pentecost nonsense attached or qualification.

The believers under the Old Covenant were saved by god on the basis of the coming messiah death and resurrection for their sins, just the same way that those of us now under the new Covenant have been, but they did NOT enjoy the blessings of having a new nature indwelling them, as that would require the messiah to actually come and be killed off and raised from the dead, and to have the Holy Spirit come in His NEW fashion at pentacost...

they had their sins remitted and forgaven them by God, not held against them, but were not given new hearts on the whole as we now are, as God reserved that benefir to Kings and prophets and priests, for those with special roles, but we now are ALL priests unto God and have ALL received the Spirit of promise!

My understanding of this is basically standard/traditional Baptist view!

 

[NetChaplain]

There was NO church prior to Pentacost , as that event marked the new work of the Holy Spirit among sinners to save and seal and indewll all found in Christ...

God remitted the sins of the OT believers due to the coming Messiah, but did NOT have them be "born again"

And they will be raised up to go into Earthly Millinium with Jesus, while Church raised unto heavenly realm!

I see the possibility of what you've presented as being true, but for myself, I have no definite convictions concerning all that will transpire with Millennium Israel.

 

[NetChaplain]

Isn't that the common problem among professed believers of different denominations and theological convictions? Same language different meaning.

Well put!!

1. "church" = institutional or local metaphorical body of baptized believers as the administrator of the keyes within the professing kingdom of God on earth.

Don't forget that the Body of Christ is also "the general assembly and Church of the first born, whose names are written in heaven" (Heb 12:23), which is the Church Christ builds on the rock of faith (Mat 16:18). There are numerous other passages that relate the Body as the Church and Bride of Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

The believers under the Old Covenant were saved by god on the basis of the coming messiah death and resurrection for their sins, just the same way that those of us now under the new Covenant have been, but they did NOT enjoy the blessings of having a new nature indwelling them, as that would require the messiah to actually come and be killed off and raised from the dead, and to have the Holy Spirit come in His NEW fashion at pentacost...

they had their sins remitted and forgaven them by God, not held against them, but were not given new hearts on the whole as we now are, as God reserved that benefir to Kings and prophets and priests, for those with special roles, but we now are ALL priests unto God and have ALL received the Spirit of promise!

My understanding of this is basically standard/traditional Baptist view!

Notice, not a single solitary scripture to back up anything you have said.

Also, notice that you are not able to respond to a single solitary scripture that I presented to prove you were wrong!

Your position is VOID of scripture but full of men's TRADITIONS.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well put!!



Don't forget that the Body of Christ is also "the general assembly and Church of the first born, whose names are written in heaven" (Heb 12:23), which is the Church Christ builds on the rock of faith (Mat 16:18). There are numerous other passages that relate the Body as the Church and Bride of Christ.

Hebrews 12:15-23 has been abused by many and made to mean what it does not mean at all. The "names" are written in heaven but the church is on earth. When you look at the entire context this is made clear. Notice that Israel actually came before God, angels and heaven when they assembled at the foot of Mount Sinai. Paul is saying that when the church assembles on earth they come before the presence of God, angels and heaven. This is why he tells the women be covered in 1 Cor 11:10 because of the presence of angels when the church assembles. This is where the angels in heaven are instructed as they attend the assemblies of the saints (Eph. 3:10).

Their "names" are written in heaven but the church is on earth as much as Israel assembled at Mount Sinai was on earth but in the presence of God, angels and heaven. The church is called "the house of God" because God is present when it assembles. The "general assembly" are also in heaven and most likely includes the angels and departed spirits of men in heaven. When the church assemblies, they are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses (Heb. 12:1).

I have often told the congregations that I have pastored, when the numbers were low that we have unseen visitors in our midst who assemble and are here by God's decree to learn from the truths expounded in the assembly.

 

[The Biblicist]

Titus 3:5; Ephesians 2:1,5,10; Jn. 3:3,5-6,7-8 all speak about the very same work of God - BRINGING SPIRITUAL DEAD men into SPIRITUAL UNION with God who is LIFE!

1. To "quicken" means to MAKE ALIVE by the Spirit
2. "Regeneration" refers to SECOND BIRTH by the Spirit
3. "born again" referes to SECOND BIRTH by the Spirit

This is the CREATIVE work of God "in Christ" and all who do not partake of this work are SPIRITUALLY DEAD regardless when they lived or shall live.

Here gentleman is the root of your interpretative problems. You simply do not understand the nature of the new birth. If you did, you would never make the absurd conclusion that regeneration is merely a post-pentecost work of the Holy Spirit. Neither do you understand the condition or state of the fallen nature. The fact that the baptism in the Spirit is promised only to water baptized believers (Mt 3:11; Acts 1:4-5; 2:38) and is time located and place located makes it impossible to be the same as regeneration.

Let us get down to brass tacks. In order for you to understand your views on regeneration are incorrect, we must establish two things:

1. The state or condition of the fallen human nature.

2. The state or condition of regeneration

Let's begin with the first. My position is that the fallen human nature:

1. From Genesis to Revelation is the same condition

2. It is spiritually dead - meaning it is SEPARATED from God = spiritual death

3. It is incapable of loving God, light or truth - Psalm 14:2-3; Rom. 3:9-20; Jn. 3:19-20; Rom. 8:7 - as long as it exists in a state of spiritual death as that by nature is "enmity against God and is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be." Hence, no fallen man can walk "by faith" as illustrated in Hebrews 11 or be justified by faith as illustrated in the case of Abraham in Romans 4.

4. That even regeneration does not remove this fallen nature from a redeemed person (Rom. 7:14-25) but merely removes this "law of sin" from the spirit of man into the flesh of man. This removal from the spirit of man to the flesh of man is the "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." This is what Christ refers to as first binding the strong man and cleansing of the house (Mt. 12). Regeneration is making the tree good so that its fruit can be good and these are all pre-pentecost teachings concerning the pre-pentecostal fallen nature of man.

 

[Yeshua1]

Notice, not a single solitary scripture to back up anything you have said.

Also, notice that you are not able to respond to a single solitary scripture that I presented to prove you were wrong!

Your position is VOID of scripture but full of men's TRADITIONS.

Youn deny that God promises made through jeremiah and Isaiah concerning israel being granted a new heart had to wait until the Holy spirit came to the earth on pentacost then?

That there was NO church here on earth prior to the ministry of jesus and His Apostles?

And that men under thr Old Covenant did NOT receive and possess the Holy spirit as we all now have, as He cwould come upon a certain person for a certain task to perform, but did seal and abide in them as he does now...

The new Covenant instituted a brand new work of God here upon the earth in the Church...

And israel and the church have different roles to occupy in the plans of God!

 

[The Biblicist]

Youn deny that God promises made through jeremiah and Isaiah concerning israel being granted a new heart had to wait until the Holy spirit came to the earth on pentacost then?

YOu are just repeating yourself. Israel is not made up off aliens from outerspace, but of human beings with a fallen nature who are saved as a nation of human beings in the future just as individual human beings have been saved since Genesis. There is not ANOTHER GOSPEL or ANOTHER SAVIOR or ANOTHER SALVATION other than the SAME one in all ages.

YOUR POSITION IS DEMANDING ANOTHER GOSPEL, ANOTHER WAY OF SALVATION and ANOTHER KIND OF HUMAN BEING. It is not either or, but BOTH! Salvation for future Israel is the SAME salvation for the PAST Israel (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; Jn. 14:6) that is the SAME for individuals (Jn. 3:3,6).

You are the one inventing another salvation OUTSIDE OF CHRIST not I. The same gospel, same salvation, same savior is true for INDIVDIUALS as it is for ISRAEL as a nation and Paul makes that crystal clear by quoting Jeremiah 31:33-34 in Hebrews 8:10-12; 10:15-17 OR are you going to deny what is promised the FUTURE NATION of Israel in Jeremiah 31:33-34 is not applied to INDIVIDUALS??????

That there was NO church here on earth prior to the ministry of jesus and His Apostles?

Your definition of the "church" has no existence before, during or after the ministry of Jesus Christ as it is simply a concocted mixture of the family and kingdom of God falsely called the "church" of God.

The "church" of the New Testament was completely built and commissioned by Christ BEFORE Pentecost (Mt. 18:15-18; 28:19-20) and merely "ADDED UNTO" on the day of Pentecost(Acts 2:40, 47). Your definition of the "church" is the "Great Whore" of Revelation but you just don't realize it, as your definition of the "church" is nothing but a POLLUTED METAPHORICAL INSTITUTONAL HARLOT made up of CONFUSION/DIVISION produced by false doctrines without any practical unity now or in the future.

And that men under thr Old Covenant did NOT receive and possess the Holy spirit as we all now have, as He cwould come upon a certain person for a certain task to perform, but did seal and abide in them as he does now...

Paul says they did - Romans 3:25; 8:8-9 and the problem is you do not understand what regeneration is, or the seal of the Holy Spirit is, or spiritual union is - you have no clue because if you did you would not be spouting this nonsense.

The "seal" of the Spirit is merely the "security" of salvation due to having the "firstfruit" of salvation and David makes it clear that his salvation was secure and he had the full salvation of the "everlasting covenant" (2 Sam. 23:5) which Isaiah says was gospel salvation ((Isa. 53 with Isaiah 55:1-6) which Paul says is the exact same salvation he preached (Acts 13:34) - "the sure mercies of David" go study this and see for yourself.
]

The new Covenant instituted a brand new work of God here upon the earth in the Church...

The "new covenant" is the administration of the "everlasting Covenant" (Heb. 13:20) UPON EARTH through a visible "house of God" and its ordinances and minsitry just as Paul says in Hebrews 9:1-2.

The "old" covenant NEVER provided eternal life or salvation for anyone and never was designed to (Gal. 3:19-22) but was designed to lead Israelites IN THE DAY OF MOSES to faith in Christ as typified in the ceremonial sacrifices preaching the very SAME gospel preached today (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23). You have not responded to any of these Scriptures because you can't respond to them because you don't understand them.

And israel and the church have different roles to occupy in the plans of God!

Nobody said they didn't. I don't confuse Israel with the church and NEITHER obtain salvation for anyone within either. Salvation is only through personal faith in Christ as Savior for both Israel (Rom. 11:25-28) as a nation made up of INDIVIDUALS and is demanded as the proper profession BEFORE church membership. Your kind of church is the same kind as the Roman Cathollic Church which demands CHURCH SALVATION as to be in your kind of church is to be saved and to be outside your kind of church is to be lost and that is the church doctrine of Rome the Great Whore.


No one on this forum is able to enter into any kind of discussion of the nature of regeneration or the fallen nature of man in regard to salvation simply because you don't understand it and it is clear to see you don't understand it as your all about church salvation instead of salvation by Christ through the SAME gospel, SAME way, SAME Savior from Genesis to Revelation as there is NO SALVATION OF ANY KIND OUTSIDE OF CHRIST AT ANY TIME. Think about the last statement I just made because your doctrine denies it, as you have one way of salvation before the cross and another way of salvation after the cross, you have one way of salvation that is "in Christ" and another way of salvation outside of Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

YOu are just repeating yourself. Israel is not made up off aliens from outerspace, but of human beings with a fallen nature who are saved as a nation of human beings in the future just as individual human beings have been saved since Genesis. There is not ANOTHER GOSPEL or ANOTHER SAVIOR or ANOTHER SALVATION other than the SAME one in all ages.

YOUR POSITION IS DEMANDING ANOTHER GOSPEL, ANOTHER WAY OF SALVATION and ANOTHER KIND OF HUMAN BEING. It is not either or, but BOTH! Salvation for future Israel is the SAME salvation for the PAST Israel (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; Jn. 14:6) that is the SAME for individuals (Jn. 3:3,6).

You are the one inventing another salvation OUTSIDE OF CHRIST not I. The same gospel, same salvation, same savior is true for INDIVDIUALS as it is for ISRAEL as a nation and Paul makes that crystal clear by quoting Jeremiah 31:33-34 in Hebrews 8:10-12; 10:15-17 OR are you going to deny what is promised the FUTURE NATION of Israel in Jeremiah 31:33-34 is not applied to INDIVIDUALS??????



Your definition of the "church" has no existence before, during or after the ministry of Jesus Christ as it is simply a concocted mixture of the family and kingdom of God falsely called the "church" of God.

The "church" of the New Testament was completely built and commissioned by Christ BEFORE Pentecost (Mt. 18:15-18; 28:19-20) and merely "ADDED UNTO" on the day of Pentecost(Acts 2:40, 47). Your definition of the "church" is the "Great Whore" of Revelation but you just don't realize it, as your definition of the "church" is nothing but a POLLUTED METAPHORICAL INSTITUTONAL HARLOT made up of CONFUSION/DIVISION produced by false doctrines without any practical unity now or in the future.



Paul says they did - Romans 3:25; 8:8-9 and the problem is you do not understand what regeneration is, or the seal of the Holy Spirit is, or spiritual union is - you have no clue because if you did you would not be spouting this nonsense.

The "seal" of the Spirit is merely the "security" of salvation due to having the "firstfruit" of salvation and David makes it clear that his salvation was secure and he had the full salvation of the "everlasting covenant" (2 Sam. 23:5) which Isaiah says was gospel salvation ((Isa. 53 with Isaiah 55:1-6) which Paul says is the exact same salvation he preached (Acts 13:34) - "the sure mercies of David" go study this and see for yourself.
]



The "new covenant" is the administration of the "everlasting Covenant" (Heb. 13:20) UPON EARTH through a visible "house of God" and its ordinances and minsitry just as Paul says in Hebrews 9:1-2.

The "old" covenant NEVER provided eternal life or salvation for anyone and never was designed to (Gal. 3:19-22) but was designed to lead Israelites IN THE DAY OF MOSES to faith in Christ as typified in the ceremonial sacrifices preaching the very SAME gospel preached today (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23). You have not responded to any of these Scriptures because you can't respond to them because you don't understand them.



Nobody said they didn't. I don't confuse Israel with the church and NEITHER obtain salvation for anyone within either. Salvation is only through personal faith in Christ as Savior for both Israel (Rom. 11:25-28) as a nation made up of INDIVIDUALS and is demanded as the proper profession BEFORE church membership. Your kind of church is the same kind as the Roman Cathollic Church which demands CHURCH SALVATION as to be in your kind of church is to be saved and to be outside your kind of church is to be lost and that is the church doctrine of Rome the Great Whore.


No one on this forum is able to enter into any kind of discussion of the nature of regeneration or the fallen nature of man in regard to salvation simply because you don't understand it and it is clear to see you don't understand it as your all about church salvation instead of salvation by Christ through the SAME gospel, SAME way, SAME Savior from Genesis to Revelation as there is NO SALVATION OF ANY KIND OUTSIDE OF CHRIST AT ANY TIME. Think about the last statement I just made because your doctrine denies it, as you have one way of salvation before the cross and another way of salvation after the cross, you have one way of salvation that is "in Christ" and another way of salvation outside of Christ.

NO!
There has always been but one way to have God save any sinner, its by the means of grace alone thru faith alone, based upon the merits of the death and resurrection of christ, but the old testament believers could not and did not experience the fullness of the salvation of God, as they had their sins remitted them, passed over, God did not count that against them, but they were still weak in their flesh and the Holy Spirit indwelling had to wait until pentacost!

 

[The Biblicist]

NO!
There has always been but one way to have God save any sinner, its by the means of grace alone thru faith alone, based upon the merits of the death and resurrection of christ, but the old testament believers could not and did not experience the fullness of the salvation of God, as they had their sins remitted them, passed over, God did not count that against them, but they were still weak in their flesh and the Holy Spirit indwelling had to wait until pentacost!

Don't you get tired of simply asserting things without a shred of Biblical support? You simply assert your theory in order to prove your theory. That is called "circular reasoning."

Let me approach this another way. Do you believe that justification, which Paul defines as inclusive of imputed righteousness by faith and remission of sins in Romans 4:6-7 is part of the "salvation" obtained by Christ on the cross??

Using the Aorist tense Paul explicitly states this aspect of salvation was obtained by Paul BEFORE he was circumcised - Rom. 4:10-11. Do you acknolwedge this as true??

Now, apply this to your theory that the cross must occur FIRST or else salvation cannot be had prior to the cross. You can't have your cake and eat it too! If the cross is necessary for PART it is necessary for the WHOLE and if it is not necessary to obtain PART it is not necessary to obtain the WHOLE.

So what basis do you have for anyone prior to the cross receiving/obtaining ANY PART of salvation?????

Second, if the indwelt New Testament believer cannot overcome indwelling sin apart from the power of the indwelling Spirit then how could anyone previous to Pentecost walk "by faith" and please God as hebrews 11 clearly states they did from Abel to Zechariah???? Your theory has the Old Testament believer MORE POWERFUL than the New Testament believer with the Spirit. Does that sound rational to you? Or do you deny the Old Testament person had the same sin nature as we do?? If so, then why are all the scriptures used to define that sin nature TAKEN FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT?????

Can you give me a reasonable response to these questions without simply asserting your theory as the basis to prove your theory (circular reasoning).

 

[Yeshua1]

Don't you get tired of simply asserting things without a shred of Biblical support? You simply assert your theory in order to prove your theory. That is called "circular reasoning."

Let me approach this another way. Do you believe that justification, which Paul defines as inclusive of imputed righteousness by faith and remission of sins in Romans 4:6-7 is part of the "salvation" obtained by Christ on the cross??

Using the Aorist tense Paul explicitly states this aspect of salvation was obtained by Paul BEFORE he was circumcised - Rom. 4:10-11. Do you acknolwedge this as true??

Now, apply this to your theory that the cross must occur FIRST or else salvation cannot be had prior to the cross. You can't have your cake and eat it too! If the cross is necessary for PART it is necessary for the WHOLE and if it is not necessary to obtain PART it is not necessary to obtain the WHOLE.

So what basis do you have for anyone prior to the cross receiving/obtaining ANY PART of salvation?????

Second, if the indwelt New Testament believer cannot overcome indwelling sin apart from the power of the indwelling Spirit then how could anyone previous to Pentecost walk "by faith" and please God as hebrews 11 clearly states they did from Abel to Zechariah???? Your theory has the Old Testament believer MORE POWERFUL than the New Testament believer with the Spirit. Does that sound rational to you? Or do you deny the Old Testament person had the same sin nature as we do?? If so, then why are all the scriptures used to define that sin nature TAKEN FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT?????

Can you give me a reasonable response to these questions without simply asserting your theory as the basis to prove your theory (circular reasoning).

Yes, as the OT make it very clear that the new heart would not come unto them until Messiah had come to atone for their sins, and that there is NO scriptures in the OT that teach that all had a new nature or permanent indwelling of the Spirit as we do now have, as he came and went upon just those holding to specific roles like prophets and kings!

Why would paul state to us that the law could not save any, as NONE were able to keep it unde the Old covenant, as still just flesh natured, not empowered by the Holy Spirit?