Baptism before 18 yrs. old

[Andy T.]

Everyone, please notice that FollowMeHome's profile says that she is newly converted to Baptist belief and that she is here to learn about Baptist beliefs. So please be gentle with her.

 

[BD17]

I would prefer you didn't put words in my mouth but I will try and explain. I believe like Apostle Paul. I was once alive without the Law, the Commandments came "sin revived" and I died. (He died in trespasses in sin. There was a time where he was alive until the Commandments came.) I am saying the child is "alive" until the Commandments come and then they become accountable for ever sin they ever committed. Where there is no Law, sin is not imputed so therefore they are clean.

Let me try and simplify it. A child is born into this world with a sinful nature because of Adam's sin and the natural death is already appointed unto them but they are free from the second death which comes because they sin themselves. Now where there is no Law there is no transgression so they cannot sin even though they do things that would be sin for someone old enough to have the law entered into them. But, there comes a time in their lives that the Commandments come and then they realize they are sinners and must repent! Does that explain it or must I go on.

Paul never believed he was alive before the law spiritually. You are so misusing Romans 7. When Paul says he was alive he means that he was doing the normal things of life, he was living out his selfish desires and things of the flesh. It does not mean he was not accountable for his actions!!


I did not put words in your mouth I quoted you exactly as you stated it. Your argument is flawed, both in being unlogical and unscriptural.

 

[BD17]

The Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men. I have had trouble finding where these Scriptures are to children. When a baby is born do you think before it can say DaDa that it knows it must repent. To be plain I don't, but if it lives in time if it is not mentally imparied then God will teach that child it is a sinner. I ask you when you were unsaved did you know you were a sinner and if so who taught you? Because some person tells you is not enough, you must be condemned of your sins.

Just one question (Do you believe the baptism saves them?)

1. No I do not believe baptism saves them.

2. God showed me I was a sinner. But that does not mean I was not a sinner before I was shown I was.


According to you I was not a sinner until God showed me I was, if I was not a sinner then what need was there for God to show me I was?

I am saying the child is "alive" until the Commandments come and then they become accountable for ever sin they ever committed.

Now that definitely does not make since!!! If they are saved before they are born(as YOU have stated you believe) and they are not sinners, and commit no sin(also what YOU have stated you believe) then how would it be fair for God to condemn them for every sin they have ever committed. If they did not know they were sinning and are not held accountable for those sins before the law(as YOU have stated) then why does that change when they recieve the law. I think you need to re-evaluate your defens Bob and make sure it does not contradict itself.

 

[Brother Bob]

If they are saved before they are born(as YOU have stated you believe) and they are not sinners, and commit no sin(also what YOU have stated you believe) then how would it be fair for God to condemn them for every sin they have ever committed. If they did not know they were sinning and are not held accountable for those sins before the law(as YOU have stated) then why does that change when they recieve the law.

Talk about being confused.

Paul said he was alive without the law and the Commandments came and sin revived and I died. I guess you have to be able to understand that Paul didn't die the natural death so he must of died a spiritual death and if he was alive before he died this spiritual death then he must of been talking about a spiritual life. The children we are talking about probably could understand that, if it was explained as I have explained it to you.:type:
If Paul died a death and we know he did not die a natural death so it could not be talking about his natural life. Study to prove yourself a workman.

 

[Bro Tony]

Most reformed believers i know who baptize infants do not believe that it brings them salvation. They believe in a covenant family and baptism is a sign of that covenant. Much the way circumcision was in the old testament. We baptize our infants and promise to raise them according to God's law and commandments, if we do that then he will bring our children to Himself, and they will receive salvation.

BD--

Are you saying that your baptizing of your children guarantees that they are one of the elect? Or are they one of the elect because they are your child? Does infant baptism for you require God to bring your child to Himself? If so where is the grace? Your above statement makes it sound like God is obligated to save your child because you baptized them. I have heard of some reformed believers who see baptism as the NT circumsion, ie...bringing them into the covenant. That is a belief without any Scriptural foundation. NT baptism is always for believers, not for those who would be believers regardless of age.

Bro Tony

 

[BD17]

Bro Tony God is not required to do anything. What was the reason for the circmcision? It was a sign of God's covenant with His people. Baptism is the same sign. Baptism does not "guarantee" anything. What it does is if we as parents follow God's commandments in rasing our child that He will keep His promise in bringing our child to Him as one of His own.

 

[BD17]

Talk about being confused.

Paul said he was alive without the law and the Commandments came and sin revived and I died. I guess you have to be able to understand that Paul didn't die the natural death so he must of died a spiritual death and if he was alive before he died this spiritual death then he must of been talking about a spiritual life. The children we are talking about probably could understand that, if it was explained as I have explained it to you.:type:
If Paul died a death and we know he did not die a natural death so it could not be talking about his natural life. Study to prove yourself a workman.

Bob all the above is what YOU have stated you believe so the confusion lies with you. Would you please use Romans 7 correctly.

Look I can quote a verse too!! This is proof that we are sinners from birth...

There once was a man named Job who came from the land of Nod.

 

[Bro Tony]

Bro Tony God is not required to do anything. What was the reason for the circmcision? It was a sign of God's covenant with His people. Baptism is the same sign. Baptism does not "guarantee" anything. What it does is if we as parents follow God's commandments in rasing our child that He will keep His promise in bringing our child to Him as one of His own.

BD,

I understand your belief. I just dont find what you teach in the Scripture. The Scripture does not teach infant baptism as either being required or optional. Water baptism is not a covenant sign like OT circumcision, Abraham was commanded to circumcise every male child as a sign of the covenant, we are not any place in the Scripture commanded to baptize our infants as a sign of the new covenant. NT baptism is for believers only---it is an ordinance of the Church, in being so only those who are in the Church, by believing in Jesus can biblically be baptized. Baptism of infants is not God's command so it cannot be part of keeping His promise in bringing our children to Him. Reform theology (which I dont agree with) by its very nature cannot have any requirement of God to bring our children to Him. Reformed theology doesnt even allow you to know if your child is one of the elect or not. For there to be complete grace and no works involved then your raising your child as God commands or having them baptized as an infant does not assure anything.

Bro Tony

 

[Clean1]

Children are sinners. Show me a child that doesn't sin and I'll show you a pig that can fly. A perfect example of a child disobeying his/her parents is in a grocery store or at their house: Child wants something, parents say 'no', child takes it any way. That kid just disobeyed his/her parents, which is a sin.
Colossians 3:23, "For all have sinned..." Children sin just like me and you do. They can cheat, lie, steal, etc. just like an older person can. Colossians 3:20, "Children, obey your parents...." Why would God command this if children didn't sin?
Infant baptism....hmmm....I have yet read an instance in the Bible where there ever was a baby getting baptized. Mark 1:10, "And coming straightway up out of the water...." This was when Jesus Christ was being baptized and clearly says that He came 'up out of the water'. You can't really do that if you were sprinkled.
Baptism has NOTHING to do with salvation. I don't want to repeat myself too much so look back at my previous post: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=30153&page=2
If anyone knew how to get people saved it was the Apostle Paul (outside of Jesus Christ). 1 Corinthians 1:17, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." Paul separates baptism from salvation clearly here and this is just one of many verses.

 

[Brother Bob]

Romans, chapter 7
"7": What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

"8": But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

"9": For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

"10": And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

"11": For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Ok, not my words but Paul's and are they ever easy to understand.

If you don't believe baptism save then why do it? You may cause your child to settle down on something short of Salvation.

 

[Brother Bob]

clean1;
Show me the Scriptures for little children to repent please.

 

[FollowMeHome]

zzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[FollowMeHome]

And your scripture for that is....?
Your profile says you are baptist, but your beliefs are not baptist in any way. In scripture baptism is for believers, those who have already believed, an infant can not and has not believed, and is not a christian just because they got wet. The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin, water does not. If water cleansed us from sin no would be have to become a christian, just take a bath. Nope, it isn't water, it's Jesus and Jesus alone.
To me it is incomprehensable for a christian saying their child can choose whatever religion they want too, and not raise them to believe in Christianity, to believe Jesus is the only way of salvation. But then, if one is a christian because they are baptized, then Jesus isn't the only way is He.

Okay, let's all jump on me at once.

I was Catholic until recently. I have joined a Baptist church. Apart from complete amnesia, some of my Catholic beliefs will stay with me for life. This may be one of them.

To someone in this thread who said their children accepted Jesus as their savior at age four.........How can that be? A four year old cannot understand salvation. I don't even remember being four.

Again, the water used in MY baptism was not ordinary tap water. It was blessed by a priest and became Holy Water. I do believe that the water of baptism washes away sin.

John the Baptist did not actually baptize Jesus because Jesus was free of sin. If you need a scripture quote, I'll look it up for you.

 

[Hope of Glory]

That's because baptism is a sign of obedience; it's a sign of death to self.

And, although I was not saved until I was 8 or 9, I have memories from when I was 2 years old, in the house that I moved out of before I was 3, including some nightmares that I had, my dog, etc. I can give you quite a bit of detail. My wife has memories from when she was 4 (but, not back as far as when her father died), and she has had a saving knowledge of Jesus as long as she can remember.

I think that 4 year olds understanding may be the exception, but it's certainly not unheard of.

 

[annsni]

It was my children who all were saved at 4. They were all in the upper 4 range (within a few months of their 5th birthday) and, believe me, they knew what they were doing. They each came to US to tell us that they want to have Jesus in their hearts and we sat with them for quite some time explaining the ramifications of that. They understood the whole thing because we are teaching them about the Lord from the time they are born - praying with them, guiding them, teacing them.

My oldest was in bed and very sad because she had done something naughty and we had sent her to bed. She called us and said that she was sorry and that she wants to have Jesus in her heart so that she can have Him help her not to sin. "Jesus will help me to not be naughty, Mama! I need Him in my heart!" My next one was in Taco Bell with me and she asked me about Palm Sunday so I told her all about Jesus dying on the cross for us. She just matter of factly said "Well, I want to go to heaven because I love Jesus! I want Jesus to come into MY heart too!". The funny thing with her is that we had presented the gospel to her a few months before and she said "I'm too young to do that." She's too smart a cookie, I have to say! My youngest had JUST seen The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe and we talked about Jesus' sacrifice for us and the fact that WE should die but Jesus paid for all of our nautiness (sin is not a word they understand but their nautiness is and they understand it's not just what they do but something inside them that makes them WANT to be nauty - aka their sin nature). He totally got it and prayed by himself that Jesus would come into his life and make him a new person! Each of our children remember when they did this and each of them shows the fruit of the Spirit - they have definate evidence of a new life in Christ. I think it's totally possible to be saved at a very young age and understand it because MY kids have done this. I was 7 when I was saved but my younger brother was just 4 (almost 5) when he did too. Baptism was a little hard to follow up with because they were just too short for our baptismal and we never thought to do it at the beach until they were older - dummy us! ;D

Annie

 

[BD17]

Some people on this thread believe your 4 year olds had nothing to confess about becasue their sin was not actually sin. Those same people would say that until your children reach some mythical age of accountabilty they can do what ever they want and it is not sinful. So your children actually asked forgiveness for nothing.

I do not believe that way, I believe children are sinful from birth, but infant baptism in no way saves them.

 

[BD17]

Follow me home, I am sorry everyone is jumping on you, I too was once Catholic and understand how hard it can be to let go of some of their beliefs. Keep searching for the truth and they will slowly but surely fall away.

 

[Clean1]

Bro. Bob,
Look at Mark 2:17, "....I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." This is Jesus speaking here. Since children are sinners, just like everyone else, then Jesus called them to repent too. 2 Peter 3:9, "....that ALL should come to repentance." That includes children.

 

[BD17]

Bro. Bob,
Look at Mark 2:17, "....I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." This is Jesus speaking here. Since children are sinners, just like everyone else, then Jesus called them to repent too. 2 Peter 3:9, "....that ALL should come to repentance." That includes children.

Clean 1 I have tried telling Bob that already, unless it says children or infants specifically he will not listen. Bob believes all actually means all adults above the mythical age of accountability.

 

[donnA]

I'm not sure what the magic number of 18 is supose to mean. If God saves a child, then that child knows whats going on, they have the same Holy Spirit the rest of us do. If a person is saved and desires baptism, then they should be baptized. They are desiring to be obedient to God, did the eunich know all about baptism and all the ins and outs of it? (being just converted, maybe not). Yet he desired to be obedient. The first act of obedience God asks for after we are saved is to be baptized.
Do we have the right to stop anyone born again from being baptized, if in fact they really are saved, or we believe they are saved (for children that is).
Is this a judgement of the child's ability to understand, or of God's ability to teach a child through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
Having that Holy Spirit makes us able to understand. Salvation and baptism are not as complex as we like to think it is, after all, if your daughters are saved, then it is so simple even a child can understand it.