Baptism by Water??

[Darron Steele]

...
Darron, God's election process can't be tossed aside when speaking of Baptism. He established the "church" with His Son at the head. Baptism was an outward show of a spiritual cleansing. Actually, I believe that the word baptism only menas water baptism some of the time in scripture. It sometimes means Spirit baptism and sometimes just simply "immersion". Like one can be immersed in their studies. We are saved by Faith and the faith comes from God, by His Election. Far be it from me to tell God that he can only allow the elected that have been water baptized into Heaven.

In Christ,
Brian

If you still think I believe that only those baptized enter Heaven, you have not been listening. I have alluded to this several times, but below is most clear.

From Post #10 with added emphasis:

I wish to be clear. I do not believe that a person who was not raised a Christian, gets "saved," attends a Baptist, Independent Christian, Church of Christ, or Disciples of Christ church for decades, and never gets baptized, has accepted the Gospel. I believe that s/he will bear the cost for the defiance of this basic Christian command.

On the other hand, I do believe that a person who accepts the Gospel while dying alone in a desert is not unsaved despite the impossibility of baptism. I believe also that a person who has been through an improper baptism ceremony as a pre-repentant and/or put through a ceremony that did not involve immersion, who still believes that the ceremony had some validity, and refuses to be baptized because s/he feels it would be wrong, is still saved if s/he has biblical faith in the Gospel. Do the last two paragraphs make sense?

I noticed also that my question was not answered, in addition to your inaccurate understanding of what I believe despite being corrected. Please do not ask me to dialogue with you if you do not plan to listen.

 

[Inquiring Mind]

On the other hand, I do believe that a person who accepts the Gospel while dying alone in a desert is not unsaved despite the impossibility of baptism.

Thats what the EOC and RCC call "Baptism of Desire"

But if you have had ample opportunity to get yourself Baptized and you never did, I doubt you will go to heaven.

 

[DHK]

Thats what the EOC and RCC call "Baptism of Desire"

But if you have had ample opportunity to get yourself Baptized and you never did, I doubt you will go to heaven.

There is no such thing as "baptism of desire." Either you are baptized or you are not. There is no sitting on the fence. You have either gone under the water or you haven't
I wasn't baptized until two years after I was saved, and never had any doubt about wheter I was saved or not. Yet according to you, you would have doubts and conclude that I was not saved. I am glad that you are not my judge.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

Chemitz, what scripture attaches water Baptism to Grace? The famous Grace verse I believe reads "We are saved by grace, through faith" I don't recall it saying, "we are saved by grace, which is baptism, and by faith also"

Darron, sorry I din't make myself clear again. I totally understand that there are exceptions to water baptism. You have made that clear. I understand about someone excepting that there infant baptism was Baptism enough, if they have faith and believe that that early Baptism was a proper Baptism. I also think I understand you to say that you think that the person who doesn't get baptized, and has every opportunity, is someone without saving faith for if he had saving faith he would go to the waters of Baptism. I use that same argument for the person who says they are saved and has no fruit and then walks away from the "faith" altogether. I even say that about folks who have some fruit at first and then walk away. My point was that I just don't believe scripture is teaching what you say it is. Do you remember the Quakers? This was a whole group that did not believe water Baptism was for today. These were a very devout peoples who had the fruits of the Spirit. As each Quaker died do you think God turned them away because they had the opprtunity to be Baptized and did not? Many people get saved like DHK and then come to the waters of Baptism years later. Sometimes it is because of the way the church they attend views baptism. Sometimes it is because they are just learning about their new faith and they don't see the need right away. In my case I have studied Baptism closely and see it as a fine thing to do, and I may some day, but it will not add to the salvation that i have because that was bought with blood and not with water. If I get Baptized I would like it to be with the person who shared Christ with me in the water as well as my pastor. In the early church there was not ordained ministers and ceremonies. One a person accepted Christ, by faith, he was baptized by the person who did the sharing of the Gospel to him. Now we think it takes ordained pastors and a ceremony. Darron, you feel that Baptism is a judge of someones faith but have you really thought that Baptism today is not done like it used to be?

all for now,

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Darron Steele]

...
Darron, sorry I din't make myself clear again. I totally understand that there are exceptions to water baptism. You have made that clear. I understand about someone excepting that there infant baptism was Baptism enough, if they have faith and believe that that early Baptism was a proper Baptism. I also think I understand you to say that you think that the person who doesn't get baptized, and has every opportunity, is someone without saving faith for if he had saving faith he would go to the waters of Baptism.

More or less. If someone KNOWS what is commanded regarding baptism, fully recognizes the invalidity of any non-Scriptural ceremony s/he might have undergone, and refuses biblical baptism, s/he is unsaved regardless of whatever else s/he says or does.

I use that same argument for the person who says they are saved and has no fruit and then walks away from the "faith" altogether. I even say that about folks who have some fruit at first and then walk away. My point was that I just don't believe scripture is teaching what you say it is. Do you remember the Quakers? This was a whole group that did not believe water Baptism was for today. These were a very devout peoples who had the fruits of the Spirit. As each Quaker died do you think God turned them away because they had the opprtunity to be Baptized and did not?

Depends on what they knew. I believe that if these people are truly deluded, and would have been baptized if they knew the truth, then they are saved because they had biblical faith.

I believe that 1 Peter 3:21, as well as Acts 2:38 when translated carefully as it is in Portuguese, describe how baptism follows from biblical faith. I have already explained this and will not repeat myself. If a faith in the Gospel would motivate someone to be baptized under fully-informed and acccessible conditions, it is biblical faith if a mistake and/or a non-availability problem precluded actual baptism.

Many people get saved like DHK and then come to the waters of Baptism years later. Sometimes it is because of the way the church they attend views baptism. Sometimes it is because they are just learning about their new faith and they don't see the need right away.

DHK admitted on another thread that the information he had was lacking. When he was better informed, he obeyed. He would have been saved had he deceased when under-informed. When I got saved, I wanted to be baptized immediately but it was withheld from me for almost five months. Had I died before those five months, I would have been saved.

In my case I have studied Baptism closely and see it as a fine thing to do, and I may some day, but it will not add to the salvation that i have because that was bought with blood and not with water.

I do not believe that this is just cause to disregard Scripture's command to be baptized to follow up our salvation.

However, the first part of the quotation I will repeat later and address.

Darron, you feel that Baptism is a judge of someones faith but have you really thought that Baptism today is not done like it used to be?

all for now,

In Christ,
Brian

Oh, yes, I have. It is different now because some have been changed the procedures without Scriptural authorization. Salvation by faith overcomes all these errors when the faith is genuine and the delusion is real. However, again, human presumption is not just cause to disregard Scripture's command to be baptized as the Bible calls for. So someone else does not do it as Scripture calls for -- can we still do it as individuals properly? Yes, I believe in most cases we can.

In my case I have studied Baptism closely and see it as a fine thing to do, and I may some day,...

I believe we have arrived at the root of the problem. I had suspected this. I hope you will trust that I am not enjoying writing this part. I believe you simply have no desire to be baptized; you do not see the need, and you might do it sometime if you decide to, but you have no desire to do so now. If so, Scripture will not be the issue here, and anything else I say would possibly make you dig your heels in deeper.

I will leave you with one thought: when Jesus Christ’s church was instituted at Matthew 28:19-20, the Lord commanded “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, |bautizad = baptize| them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, | enseñad = teach| them to obey everything I have told you| ; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (NBV|RVA margin and translated|NBV|RVA margin and translated|ICB|NASB). He called for baptism to accompany making of converts, and listed it before teaching them what to do -- many churches alter the order, but even so, we can still decide as individuals to be baptized. The "lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” suggests that Christians were to be baptized until the close of the church age. I leave you to decide whether or not you are willing to obey that. Out of genuine hope for your eternal well-being, I hope you will make the Scriptural decision.