Baptism for the Dead

[Shoostie]

water baptism is a picture of death, burial and resurrection (coming up out of the water).

Why bother baptizing bringing them up out of the water if Christ is one of the collective dead (singular - "the dead ones") and HE did not resurrect from the grave?

Paul clearly doesn't ascribe baptism for the dead to the Corinthian church, so it's clearly wrong for anyone to declare anything to the contrary. It's too bad that some people don't want to get a clue even when it's spelled out that Paul didn't say "You baptize" but that "[Some] people baptize..." If the Corinthian church did it, Paul would have said "You", or "We" (if it were a Christian practice). How is this too difficult for anyone to understand (to barrow a phrase from Dave)?

It's nothing that any apostles would have taught the church of Corinth to do. It's nothing from scripture. It's nothing that Paul would implicitly approve of, as would be the case if the Corinthian church were doing it. And, arguing that the church baptized the dead when they didn't believe in the resurrection is a stupid argument, precisely because baptism for the dead implies a resurrection.

So, the Mormon church and others who think the Bible teaches baptism for the dead are dead WRONG.

 

[HankD]

Paul clearly doesn't ascribe baptism for the dead to the Corinthian church, so it's clearly wrong for anyone to declare anything to the contrary. It's too bad that some people don't want to get a clue even when it's spelled out that Paul didn't say "You baptize" but that "[Some] people baptize..." If the Corinthian church did it, Paul would have said "You", or "We" (if it were a Christian practice). How is this too difficult for anyone to understand (to barrow a phrase from Dave)?

It's nothing that any apostles would have taught the church of Corinth to do. It's nothing from scripture. It's nothing that Paul would implicitly approve of, as would be the case if the Corinthian church were doing it. And, arguing that the church baptized the dead when they didn't believe in the resurrection is a stupid argument, precisely because baptism for the dead implies a resurrection.

So, the Mormon church and others who think the Bible teaches baptism for the dead are dead WRONG.

shoostie, you have misunderstood me.

 

[robycop3]

Personally, I don't believe we can do ANYTHING for the dead. if a person dies unsaved, they're condemned. It's all over.

if a saved person dies before being baptized, they're still saved. We have the standout example of the repentant thief on the cross beside Jesus. And, of course, God knows when a person can't be baptized.

There are several area churches that have no natatorium, and they're not always available at churches that do. Several area churches baptize in the Ohio River, or in Symmes Creek, which runs thru Lawrence Co. Ohio. Obviously, they're not gonna do it in winter ! And there HAVE been a few people die after salvation but before baptism for that reason.

But again, there's NOTHING I know of that any living person can do for a dead person besides honor the memory.

 

[Van]

OK.
Now please clarify how the passage says that they were baptized for the dead ( those are the words on the page ), and how your view agrees with the words.

Thanks in advance.

We should continue to disciple potential converts, and to water baptize them based on their public declaration of belief in Christ. Over time, believers physically die, and thus the laborers in Christ's ministry diminish. But because of our ministry, we help replenish those laborers with new converts, therefore we water baptize replacements for those who go into His rest.

 

[Dave G]

This has become all about you insisting the Bible says something it flat out doesn't say.

1) You implied I'm too stupid to see what's not there.
2) I explained why Paul mentioned baptism for the dead, and you disputed it without any valid cause.

My apologies, Shoostie.

I thought that by laying it all out, it would help in some sort of way.
Please forgive me for my forcefulness.

@rlvaughn ,

I see now that taking things beyond my initial post # 9 was the wrong thing to do.
Please disregard all my replies past that.

Thanks,
And I wish you well.

 

[agedman]

“The sea gave up the dead in it...”.

Dead buried at sea, are baptized (immersed) until raised. Some to merely die again.

 

[MB]

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Paul is asking why, if the dead rise not at all. IMHO He is saying there is no reason to baptise for the dead. They are dead and it's too late.
MB

 

[Shoostie]

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Paul is asking why, if the dead rise not at all. IMHO He is saying there is no reason to baptise for the dead. They are dead and it's too late.
MB

Your paul teaches there's no resurrection?

 

[MB]

Your paul teaches there's no resurrection?

Temper temper It makes you look ignorant
MB

 

[Shoostie]

Temper temper It makes you look ignorant
MB

The only ignorance is the assertion Paul is saying there's no reason to baptize the dead.

 

[37818]

Your paul teaches there's no resurrection?

The only ignorance is the assertion Paul is saying there's no reason to baptize the dead.

Read the Apostle Paul's argument, ". . . how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? . . . But now is Christ risen from the dead, . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15:12-20. ". . . Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead ? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15:29-30. ". . . Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? . . ." -- Romans 6:3.

Now to be immersed into Christ's death, if Christ is died and among the dead, would be to be immersed on behalf the the dead.

 

[MartyF]

Read the Apostle Paul's argument, ". . . how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? . . . But now is Christ risen from the dead, . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15:12-20. ". . . Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead ? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 15:29-30. ". . . Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? . . ." -- Romans 6:3.

Now to be immersed into Christ's death, if Christ is died and among the dead, would be to be immersed on behalf the the dead.

Yeah, I think I might be ok with this explanation. But I still have the problem with the fact the plural is being used in all these cases as oppose to the singular which would then more clearly indicate Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:29 Interlinear: Seeing what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? why also are they baptized for the dead?

What is baptism for the dead mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29? | CARM.org

 

[robycop3]

I'll repeat - There's NOTHING that we, the living, can do for the dead except honor their memory. The "fate" of the dead-heaven or hell-is irrevocably decided at the moment of death. And they no longer know what's going on here.

It's like the push to "pardon" certain people convicted of crimes, and are now long-dead. What good does it do those people ?

 

[37818]

Yeah, I think I might be ok with this explanation. But I still have the problem with the fact the plural is being used in all these cases as oppose to the singular which would then more clearly indicate Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:29 Interlinear: Seeing what shall they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? why also are they baptized for the dead?

What is baptism for the dead mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29? | CARM.org

The dead is plural. If Christ is not risen then He would yet be among the dead [plural]. So to be immersed for a dead [singular] Christ who is among the dead [plural], is to be immersed on behalf of the dead [ plural]. That is the argument.

 

[Covenanter]

I suggest that the question arises from a simplistic reading of the text, a reading that is completely inconsistent with Scripture teaching on baptism being a ordinance following conversion, & signifying the new believer being identified with Christ in his death & resurrection.

The simplistic reading results in a discussion of a non-scriptural ritual as if it were being practised.

I like these comments -

Reading it with this understanding seems the most natural to me:

If the dead are not raised, then Christ isn't raised. Why are you baptized in the name of a dead man?​

But most eminent scholars take it to be a reference to some sort of proxy baptism, so there's probably something I'm missing.

Think Paul was saying that since water baptizing is a symbol of Jesus death and resurrection for us, if He us not risen, why even baptise?

I'm not a Greek scholar, but the BLB is instructive - the word translated "for" is hyper G5228 which occurs 160 times & is variously translated -

The KJV translates Strong's G5228 in the following manner: for (104x), of (12x), above (12x), for (one's) sake (8x), on (one's) behalf (3x), more than (3x), in (one's) stead (2x), than (2x), very chiefest (with G3029) (2x), beyond (1x), to (1x), over (1x), more (1x), exceedingly abundantly (with G1537) (with G4053) (1x), exceedingly (with G1537) (with G4053) (1x), very highly (with G1537) (with G4053) (1x), miscellaneous (5x).

If we keep to Scripture teaching on baptism, the dead is the risen Christ, and the believer is baptised as a guilty sinner being cleansed from sin & rising to a living relationship with our risen Lord.

 

[Shoostie]

The dead is plural. If Christ is not risen then He would yet be among the dead [plural]. So to be immersed for a dead [singular] Christ who is among the dead [plural], is to be immersed on behalf of the dead [ plural]. That is the argument.

Churches are full of people who incompetently interpret things Bible says, but misrepresenting facts goes beyond incompetence to dishonesty. You said, "So to be immersed for a dead [singular] Christ..." The verse says "baptized for the dead [plural]", plural, not singular. Every relevant word used in the verse is plural.

People were being proxy baptized on behalf of dead people.

 

[37818]

People were being proxy baptized on behalf of dead people.

That is, what I understand to be, the false teaching.

If Christ is not raised he would be among the dead [plural].