Baptism in Romans 6, what is the referent?

Where in these or any other passages in the Bible do you read that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was a “rare event?” How can an event experienced by “all mankind” be a “rare event” than ended during apostolic times.”?

You are totally ignoring what the Bible says. That is the very reason why at first I did not post passages from the Bible. I knew that it would accomplish nothing, and you have proven me to be correct.

 

Personally, I believe that Bruner is mistaken on this point. What do you personally believe?

 

Do these two men deny that we are baptized in the Holy Spirit upon being born again? Or are they simply denying that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit Baptism found in Acts are not for today?

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Sigh! OK, I'll try to peck in a direct quote using my one finger typing:

Mullins: "The question is often raised whether or not the baptism of the Holy Spirit occured once for all or is repeated...The evidence seems to favor the former view...at least of (it) being limited to outpourings which took place in connection with events recorded in the early chapters of the Book of Acts." p. 400.

Carroll: 'a man once asked me if I had received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I told him 'no; that I didn't need it, for it was never given except to accredit the church....If any man today says he has the gift of the Spirit, let me allow me to pick out the rattlesnake ...(224) the baptism of the Holy Spirit...temporary nature...now no necessity for it" (225).

Neither says being born again = being baptized with or by or in the HS! </font>[/QUOTE]Very interesting! I have Mullins’ The Christian Religion In Its Doctrinal Expression right here in my lap. I shall have to read what he has to say about this matter in this book. Carroll is going to have to wait a little longer.

I may owe PastorGreg an apology.

And thank you for your quotes and page numbers. They are VERY much appreciated.

 

Bill (UZThD),

Your assessment of Mullin’s view appears to me to be correct. For the benefit of the readers who do not have a copy of the ISBE, I am posting here, in the context in which it appears, the quote that you provided for us:

3. Finality of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit
The question is often raised whether or not the baptism of the Holy Spirit occurred once for all or is repeated in subsequent baptisms. The evidence seems to point to the former view to the extent at least of being limited to outpourings which took place in connection with events recorded in the early chapters of the Book of Acts. The following considerations favor this view:
(1) In the first chapter of Acts Jesus predicts, according to Luke's account, that the baptism of the Holy Spirit would take place, “not many days hence” (Act_1:5). This would seem to point to a definite and specific event rather than to a continuous process.
(2) Again, Peter's citation in Act_2:17-21 of Joel's prophecy shows that in Peter's mind the event which his hearers were then witnessing was the definite fulfillment of the words of Joel.
(3) Notice in the third place that only one other event in the New Testament is described as the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and for special reasons this may be regarded as the completion of the Pentecostal baptism. The passage is that contained in Acts 10:1 through 11:18 in which the record is given of the following events: (a) miraculous vision given to Peter on the housetop (Act_10:11-16) indicating that the things about to occur are of unique importance; (b) The speaking with tongues (Act_10:45, Act_10:46); (c) Peter declares to the brethren at Jerusalem that the Holy Ghost fell on the Gentiles in this instance of Cornelius and his household “as on us at the beginning” (Act_11:15); (d) Peter also declares that this was a fulfillment of the promise of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Act_11:16, Act_11:17); (e) The Jewish Christians who heard Peter's account of the matter acknowledged this as proof that God had also extended the privileges of the gospel to the Gentiles (Act_11:18). The baptism of the Holy Spirit bestowed upon Cornelius and his household is Thus directly linked with the first outpouring at Pentecost, and as the event which signalized the opening of the door of the gospel formally to Gentiles it is in complete harmony with the missionary significance of the first great Pentecostal outpouring. It was a turning point or crisis in the Messianic kingdom and seems designed to complete the Pentecostal gift by showing that Gentiles as well as Jews are to be embraced in all the privileges of the new dispensation.
(4) We observe again that nowhere in the epistles do we find a repetition of the baptism of the Spirit. This would be remarkable if it had been understood by the writers of the epistles that the baptism of the Spirit was frequently to be repeated. There is no evidence outside the Book of Acts that the baptism of the Spirit ever occurred in the later New Testament times. In 1Co_12:13 Paul says, “For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body,... and were all made to drink of one Spirit.” But here the reference is not to the baptism of the Spirit, but rather to a baptism into the church which is the body of Christ. We conclude, therefore, that the Pentecostal baptism taken in conjunction with the baptism of the Spirit in the case of Cornelius completes the baptism of the Holy Spirit according to the New Testament teaching. The baptism of the Spirit as Thus bestowed was, however, the definite gift of the Spirit in His fullness for every form of spiritual blessing necessary in the progress of the kingdom and as the permanent and abiding gift of God to His people. In all subsequent New Testament writings there is the assumption of this presence of the Spirit and of His availability for all believers. The various commands and exhortations of the epistles are based on the assumption that the baptism of the Spirit has already taken place, and that, according to the prediction of Jesus to the disciples, the Spirit was to abide with them forever (Joh_14:16). We should not therefore confound other forms of expression found in the New Testament with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When Christians are enjoined to “walk by the Spirit” (Gal_5:16) and “be filled with the Spirit” (Eph_5:18), or when the Spirit is described as an anointing (χρίσμα, chrísma) as in 1Jo_2:20-27, and as the “earnest of our inheritance” (ἀρραβών, arrabō̇n). as in Eph_1:14, and when various other similar expressions are employed in the epistles of the New Testament, we are not to understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit. These expressions indicate aspects of the Spirit's work in believers or of the believer's appropriation of the gifts and blessings of the Spirit rather than the historical baptism of the Spirit.
4. Relation of Baptism of the Spirit to Other Baptisms
Three final points require brief attention, namely, the relation of the baptism of the Spirit to the baptism in water, and to the baptism in fire, and to the laying on of hands.
(1) We note that the baptism in fire is coupled with the baptism in the Spirit in Mat_3:11 and in Luk_3:16. These passages give the word of John the Baptist. John speaks of the coming One who “shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire” (Luk_3:16). This baptism in fire is often taken as being parallel and synonymous with the baptism in the Spirit. The context however in both Matthew and Luke seems to favor another meaning. Jesus' Messianic work will be both cleansing and destructive. The “you” addressed by John included the people generally and might naturally embrace both classes, those whose attitude to Jesus would be believing and those who would refuse to believe. His action as Messiah would affect all men. Some He would regenerate and purify through the Holy Ghost. Others He would destroy through the fire of punishment. This view is favored by the context in both gospels. In both the destructive energy of Christ is coupled with His saving power in other terms which admit of no doubt. The wheat He gathers into the garner and the chaff He burns with unquenchable fire.
(2) The baptism of the Holy Spirit was not meant to supersede water baptism. This is clear from the whole of the history in the Book of Acts, where water baptism is uniformly administered to converts after the Pentecostal baptism of the Spirit, as well as from the numerous references to water baptisms in the epistles. The evidence here is so abundant that it is unnecessary to develop it in detail. See Rom_6:3; 1Co_1:14-17; 1Co_10:2; 1Co_12:13; 1Co_15:29; Gal_3:27; Eph_4:5; Col_2:12; 1Pe_3:21.
(3) In Act_8:17 and Act_19:6 the Holy Spirit is bestowed in connection with the laying on of the hands of apostles, but these are not to be regarded as instances of the baptism of the Spirit in the strict sense, but rather as instances of the reception by believers of the Spirit which had already been bestowed in fullness at Pentecost.
Literature
Arts. on Holy Spirit in Hastings, Dictionary of the Bible (five volumes) and Hastings, Dictionary of Christ and the Gospels; article on “Spiritual Gifts” in Encyclopedia Biblica; Moule, Veni Creator; Smeaton, The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit; Kuyper, The Work of the Holy Spirit. See also HOLY SPIRIT.

 

Mullins, in his book, The Christian Religion in Its Doctrinal Expression, writes approximately the same thing:

2. The Holy Spirit in relation to the Son.
We have already seen that the Holy Spirit acted everywhere upon the incarnate Son of God, beginning at his birth, continuing to his baptism, imparting the equipment necessary for his mission while on earth, manifesting his power in the sacrifice of Christ on the cross (an offering through the " eternal Spirit "), and raising his body from the dead.

What we need to grasp clearly here is the vital and essential relation of the Spirit to the gospel of salvation as it was preached after the ascension of Christ. The coming of the Spirit had been predicted and promised during the earthly ministry of Jesus. (See Luke 24 : 49; John 20 : 22; Acts i : 5.) He was to be the great source of life and power to believers. (John 7 : 38.) The disciples were commanded to tarry in Jerusalem until the Spirit came and endued them with divine power. (Luke 24 : 49.) His coming was to impart the qualifications needed for proclaiming throughout the world the gospel of salvation. Jerusalem, Judsea, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth are named as the range of the activity.

Pentecost was the fulfilment of the promise of Christ. It is so interpreted by the early preachers in the book of Acts. Pentecost was the historical fulfilment of the predicted baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Acts i : 5.) This seems to have been completed at the conversion of Cornelius, another Gentile. (Acts 10:1 to 11:18.) After thjs the baptism of the Spirit is not mentioned. He now abides continually in his fullness with the community of disciples. He remains on earth "forever. He is not withdrawn. (John 14:16.) We are commanded to 'take" (labete, John 20:22) the Holy Spirit. This is a word expressing action, and not merely passive reception, on our part. The Spirit is given, but we must claim and appropriate him by faith….

 

Too bad Mullins and Carroll advocate this "ridiculously and absurdly flase belief," believe this "nonsense," "cannot afford to buy and unabridged edition of the Bible," "Know nothing about the subject," Have "virtually no knowledge at all," hold a position that is "wild and totally unfounded," make these "wild assertions," have "not studied and believe in absolute nonsense," have "no respect for thousands of scholars," and are "silly."

 

Bill,

Sorry about that last post. Hope you can follow it. Don't know what I did wrong, but some of my replies are within the quote, set off by lines.

 

Early this morning I dispatched via Federal Express® a copy of the KJ Bible to both Mullins and Carroll . I have not yet had time to study what Carroll wrote, but I intend to do so soon. The argument by Mullins could be easily refuted by many of the high school students in my church. I may ask some of them to do so and then post their refutations.

 

While I am waiting for the refutations by the kids in my church, I shall post some refutations of my own. Mullins wrote (posted in context above),

This [the baptism in the Holy Spirit] seems to have been completed at the conversion of Cornelius, another Gentile. (Acts 10:1 to 11:18.) After this the baptism of the Spirit is not mentioned.

The Book of Acts does not record any church history after about 65 A.D., and apparently Mullins did not go to the bother to look any further. If he had, he would have found that not only is the occurrence of baptism in the Holy Spirit recorded throughout the history of Church, the occurrence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit as evidenced by the gift of tongues is recorded throughout the history of Church. “Theologians” who limit their research to the level pursued by kids who are still looking forward to their high school years are, in my opinion, grossly irresponsible.

Irenaeus wrote,

"In like manner do we also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of language and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostles term spiritual "

Tertullian wrote,

"Let him exhibit prophets such as have spoken, not by human sense but with the Spirit of God, such as have predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision a prayer, only let it be by the Spirit in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him "

Saint Augustine wrote:

"We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them by the laying on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues.”

Later in church history we find this phenomenon reported among the following:

Saint Hildengard in the twelfth century

The mendicant friars of the thirteenth century, the most notable of which was Saint Vincent Ferrer

In the first half of the sixteenth century we find it reported about the two Catholic saints, Saint Francis Xavier and Saint Louis Bertrand. In the bull by which Bertrand was canonized for his success in missionary work we read, "to facilitate the work of converting the natives, the apostle was miraculously endowed with the gift of tongues."

In Sourer’s History of the Christian Church we read, “It is stated that, Dr. Martin Luther was a prophet, evangelist, speaker in tongues, and interpreter, in one person, endowed with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit."

The Jansenists in the early 1700’s

The Cevennes of the same period

In the Encyclopedia Britannica we read of tongues "among the converts of Wesley and Whitefield," and that John Wesley wrote a protest against a Dr. Middleton who wrote "after the Apostolic time, there is not, in all history, one instance...of any person who had even exercised that gift (tongues)." Wesley replied, "Sir, your memory fails you again, it has been heard more than once no further off than the valleys of Dauphiny."(14)

The Society of Friends or Quakers in the seventeenth century,

"While waiting upon the Lord in silence, as often we did for many hours together, we received often the pouring down of the Spirit upon us, and our hearts were glad and our tongues loosed and our mouth opened, and we spake with new tongues as the Lord gave us utterance, and as His Spirit led us, which was poured down upon us, on sons and daughters, and the glory of the Father was revealed. And then began we to sing praise to the Lord God Almighty and to the Lamb forever "(16)

The Shakers in the eighteenth century,

“Some who attended confessed their sins aloud, crying for mercy; some went into a trance-like state in which they saw visions and received prophecies of Christ's imminent second coming. Others shouted and danced for joy because they believed that the day was at hand for wars to cease and God's kingdom on earth to begin."

The Irvingites in the early nineteenth century among whom speaking in tongues during church services was the norm.

In 1830 Mary Campbell was reported to have spoken in tongues and prophesized.

Among those to whom Dwight L. Moody ministered,

Dr. R. Boyd wrote in 1873:

“When I got to the rooms of the Young Men's Christian Association in Victoria Hall, London, I found the meeting on fire: The young men were speaking in tongues, prophesying. What on earth did it mean? Only that Moody had been addressing them that afternoon”

In 1875 R.B. Swan wrote that he and others spoke in tongues.

In 1879 we read of W.J. Walthall receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues.

In 1880 in Kara Kara, Armenia a Pentecostal movement broke out with speaking in tongues.

Also in 1880 speaking in tongues was reported in Switzerland.

Since 1880, the reported occurrences are in the millions.

 

What saith the Scripture:

Luke 24:49. "And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."

Isa. 32:14. Because the palace has been abandoned, the populated city forsaken. Hill and watch-tower have become caves forever, A delight for wild donkeys, a pasture for flocks;
15. Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high, And the wilderness becomes a fertile field, And the fertile field is considered as a forest.

Isa.44:1. "But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, And Israel, whom I have chosen:
2. Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, 'Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen.
3. 'For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants;
4. And they will spring up among the grass Like poplars by streams of water.'

John 7:38. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' "
39. But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 14:16. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17. that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
18. "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
19. "After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.
20. "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.
21. "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
22. Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, "Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?"
23. Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
24. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
25. "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.
26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 15:26. "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
27. and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

John. 16:7. "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8. "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9. concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10. and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
11. and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12. "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
14. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
15. "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Jesus' Death and Resurrection Foretold
16. "A little while, and you will no longer see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me."

Acts 1:4. Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;
5. for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
6. So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"
7. He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8. but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

Acts 2:1. When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
2. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
4. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
5. Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
7. They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
8. "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
9. "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10. Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11. Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
12. And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
13. But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."
Peter's Sermon
14. But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.
15. "For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;
16. but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17. 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
18. EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.
19. 'AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
20. 'THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.
21. 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'

 

Views 2 – 6 are all very commonly encountered and are each held by countless thousands. View 1 I had never before encountered. It is beyond my comprehension how Mullins and Carroll could possibly have so grossly misunderstood the Bible, and how they could possibly have dismissed the plethora of extra-biblical information that makes utter nonsense of their view.

P.S. All of the Scriptures that I quoted in my last post above are from the NASB, 1995)

 

I must admit that I am a bit curious why you believe that you are right and everyone who has studied these subjects is wrong? Well—almost everyone. I for one would not hold too very tenaciously to any doctrine that was opposed by almost every Bible scholar unless I had studied the subject in substantially greater depth than they had I had learned something of substantial significance that they had overlooked.

If you were a new Christian just starting out, I would treat you with utmost care and respect. But when a man claims to be a Baptist pastor, and I have no reason to doubt that you are one, and yet shows no evidence whatsoever that he has any respect at all for the things that the Holy Spirit has taught others who have over a period of many years toiled in study, I find it quite difficult to have much respect for his opinions.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon wrote,

“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”