Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[37818]

.

And



You had posted this: "The third main view, Pentecost is the start of the receiving of the Holy Spirit, being the one baptism of the Holy Spirit." ~~ end of quote

I take that as you meaning when believers had started receiving the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost at their born again of the Spirit moment of salvation when Jesus was no longer present with them for when eternal life is received as by faith in Jesus Christ.

In short, being born again is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ChristB4Us]

.

In short, being born again is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Right and so His believing disciples were finally born again of the Spirit at Pentecost when Jesus was no longer present with them.

That way, they can identify with other new believers in that they shall receive the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ rather than by sight.

 

[Van]

If you were raised up from a young child through the Baptist ranks as I was, most likely, the phrase "baptism of the Holy Spirit" carries a totally different meaning/definition than that of the Pentecostals/Church of God/Foursquare.

First, let me say that I'm not denying the filling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. No one can deny that fact, it's clearly seen many times in Scripture. I'm stating that the original meaning of the phrase "baptism of the Holy Spirit" has become very confusing because it has been hi-jacked by the Pentecostals and given a new definition. The reason for all the misunderstandings of the "baptisms" found in the NT Scripture.

I'll begin with Acts 1:5,

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

This baptism of the Holy Spirit took place at Pentecost in Acts 2. We all know what happened, The Holy Spirit fell on them and they spoke in tongues. But what was this Baptism, what did it mean? What was God's purpose?

The Baptists and Pentecostals agree that this Baptism was the Holy Spirit coming to man in a new dimension, to permanently dwell in man. This had never been possible before because "Christ had not yet been glorified."

Where the Baptists and the Pentecostals part ways is in the purpose of this Baptism. The Pentecostals place the emphasis on the filling of the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues in relation to the 9 gifts of the Spirit. The Baptists place emphasis on the born-again experience, as Paul put it, "the baptism into Christ."

Before the Pentecostal Movement came on the scene around the turn of the 20th century, the great theologian's and scholar's associated "the baptism of the Holy Spirit" with the "baptism into Christ" that Paul preached. Paul further explained in Colossians 2:9-13,

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"

This is what happens every time a lost soul accepts Christ as their Saviour. It's the Holy Spirit coming in a new dimension, taking up residence in man "through the faith of the operation of God." The exact same thing that took place in Acts 2 for those who believed.

Maybe I shouldn't feel this way, but I can't help but to be upset that such damage has been done to the Word of God. So much confusion, so many not able to understand.

Hi Charlie24, great topic.

I am not sure if you referenced the verse or verses describing the Holy Spirit's baptism. Not sure if you were referring to being transferred spiritually into Christ, (See Romans 6:3) or some other divine action. You certainly mentioned "in Him" (or in whom) several times so I am hoping that was what you were teaching.

Romans 6:4 says we have been buried "with Him" through baptism into death. I want to camp on this verse.

1) What does "buried with Him" mean? I believe the idea is that we (our individual human spirits) were immersed into Christ's spirit, resulting in us being "in Him" (spiritually transferred from being "in Adam, in the realm of darkness, and immersed in Christ spiritually.

2) What does "through baptism into death" mean? I believe the idea is that we were immersed figuratively in His shed blood (His sacrificial death to pay the ransom for all) resulting in our transformation from being separated from God due to our unholy state, to being made alive, united with God, due to undergoing the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ which removes all the consequences for our sin, past, present and future. Colossians 2:12 correlates being made alive with Christ being raised from the dead.

Final point, do not be discouraged by those finding fault and missing the central thrust of your OP.

 

[ChristB4Us]

@Charlie24 & @37818 & @JD731 & @Van

It is too late for me to remove my tagging John of Japan to those 3 replies after my reply to his initial post regarding the baptism with the Holy Ghost after having withdrawn from him to admonish him for identifying with the apostate calling in this other thread.

What Identifies A Christian As A Baptist?

I had asked the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive me for doing that after having withdrawn from him to admonish him as my brother and I will need His help to obey His commandment per 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 & repeated again in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;....

....
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

He had apologized to me when coming to the conclusion that I was not a Baptist for not believing that water baptism by immersion was required and not believing that this was the only recognize mode of water baptism in the N.T. , even though other Baptist members believe as I do, but I just want everyone to know that was not the reason why I was withdrawing from him in that other thread for why I was to be admonishing him per the Lord's commandment & with His help..

It was his identifying with that apostate calling of receiving the Holy Spirit by a sign, which his reply also in this thread mirrors as looking for evidence of that baptism with the Holy Ghost by speaking for the Lord in boldness.

I do not know how the tagging system works in this forum or if it only works by tagging one member to it at a time per post, but I am confessing my sin to you as well to the Lord for engaging John of Japan after withdrawing from him to admonish him.

I am not judging him as not a Christian nor judging him as not a Baptist, but admonishing him as my brother still for identifying with that apostate calling as I believe he is at risk of being excommunicated from the Marriage Supper at the pre great tribulation rapture event when Jesus Christ comes as the Bridegroom to judge His House first to receive those abiding in Him & His words, and leaving behind those found in unrepentant iniquity to be resurrected after the great tribulation.

So I am hoping in the Lord that the Lord will lead John of Japan to repentance.

I am tagging you brothers in Christ for this reason below so as to confirm the word to John of Japan that he needs to repent.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I doubt the forum will ban anyone in respect of verse 17 since not every member seems to be speaking the same thing nor holding to the same judgment, and it would be hard to know when a member did repent, to be let back in, but in regards to verse 16, if you understand and share my concern for John of Japan, then may the Lord lead you to add to His words in correcting john of Japan in Christ's love, in the hopes that He may use any of you to lead him to repentance.

I am not a smart person and so I am thankful to the Lord for His wisdom in understanding His words and using His words as meat to discern good and evil by His words. If you do not understand the apostasy that John of Japan is in or do not see what the big deal is about, then all I can do is ask that you pray for that wisdom because it does involve keeping the faith which is the good fight.

Here is my reply to John of Japan that he was identifying with as being involved in apostasy before that post of that first link.

What Identifies A Christian As A Baptist?.

This was his reply to that post for when he had identified himself with that apostasy.

What Identifies A Christian As A Baptist?

Pray to the Lord Jesus Christ about this issue unless you wish to inquire more on the subject from me or from Jesus Christ about why it is a departure from the faith in Jesus Christ to seek the receiving or even the baptism of the Holy Ghost by a sign.

As it is, I need the Lord's help to withdraw from John of Japan so as to admonish him as my brother. I really believe he is in serious trouble with the Lord for identifying with that apostasy as I believe he is at risk of being left behind unless he repents with the Lord's help before the Bridegroom comes..

 

[John of Japan]

I understand what you're saying. This, I think, would be for another thread as I'm trying to nail down the true meaning of "the baptism of the Holy Spirit."

I appreciate your friendly attitude, but you made a bald statement about tongues in your OP, and that is generally considered fair game for discussion on a debate board. However, I will respect your wishes and not go further on this with you, though someone else has mentioned it and I will discuss it with that person.

Tongues, the girts, who, what, when, and where, would be a great discussion in another thread.

By "girts" I assume you mean "gifts"?

 

[John of Japan]

@Charlie24 & @37818 & @JD731 & @Van

It is too late for me to remove my tagging John of Japan to those 3 replies after my reply to his initial post regarding the baptism with the Holy Ghost after having withdrawn from him to admonish him for identifying with the apostate calling in this other thread.

What Identifies A Christian As A Baptist?

I had asked the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive me for doing that after having withdrawn from him to admonish him as my brother and I will need His help to obey His commandment per 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 & repeated again in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you.

5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;....

....
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

He had apologized to me when coming to the conclusion that I was not a Baptist for not believing that water baptism by immersion was required and not believing that this was the only recognize mode of water baptism in the N.T. , even though other Baptist members believe as I do, but I just want everyone to know that was not the reason why I was withdrawing from him in that other thread for why I was to be admonishing him per the Lord's commandment & with His help..

It was his identifying with that apostate calling of receiving the Holy Spirit by a sign, which his reply also in this thread mirrors as looking for evidence of that baptism with the Holy Ghost by speaking for the Lord in boldness.

I do not know how the tagging system works in this forum or if it only works by tagging one member to it at a time per post, but I am confessing my sin to you as well to the Lord for engaging John of Japan after withdrawing from him to admonish him.

I am not judging him as not a Christian nor judging him as not a Baptist, but admonishing him as my brother still for identifying with that apostate calling as I believe he is at risk of being excommunicated from the Marriage Supper at the pre great tribulation rapture event when Jesus Christ comes as the Bridegroom to judge His House first to receive those abiding in Him & His words, and leaving behind those found in unrepentant iniquity to be resurrected after the great tribulation.

So I am hoping in the Lord that the Lord will lead John of Japan to repentance.

I am tagging you brothers in Christ for this reason below so as to confirm the word to John of Japan that he needs to repent.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I doubt the forum will ban anyone in respect of verse 17 since not every member seems to be speaking the same thing nor holding to the same judgment, and it would be hard to know when a member did repent, to be let back in, but in regards to verse 16, if you understand and share my concern for John of Japan, then may the Lord lead you to add to His words in correcting john of Japan in Christ's love, in the hopes that He may use any of you to lead him to repentance.

I am not a smart person and so I am thankful to the Lord for His wisdom in understanding His words and using His words as meat to discern good and evil by His words. If you do not understand the apostasy that John of Japan is in or do not see what the big deal is about, then all I can do is ask that you pray for that wisdom because it does involve keeping the faith which is the good fight.

Here is my reply to John of Japan that he was identifying with as being involved in apostasy before that post of that first link.

What Identifies A Christian As A Baptist?.

This was his reply to that post for when he had identified himself with that apostasy.

What Identifies A Christian As A Baptist?

Pray to the Lord Jesus Christ about this issue unless you wish to inquire more on the subject from me or from Jesus Christ about why it is a departure from the faith in Jesus Christ to seek the receiving or even the baptism of the Holy Ghost by a sign.

As it is, I need the Lord's help to withdraw from John of Japan so as to admonish him as my brother. I really believe he is in serious trouble with the Lord for identifying with that apostasy as I believe he is at risk of being left behind unless he repents with the Lord's help before the Bridegroom comes..

I'm going to be gentle here and assume that you just don't know what apostasy really is. You are accusing me of being lost and against Christ. The word in the NT simply means a "falling away," and refers to someone who once claimed to be a Christian but was never truly saved, and has turned against Christ.

Charles Ryrie says that there are three doctrinal characteristics of apostasy, including "(a) a denial of the doctrine of the trinity (1 John 2:22-23); (b) a denial of the doctrine of the Incarnation of Christ (1 John 2:22-23); 4:3; 2 John 7)...(c) a denial of the doctrine of the return of Christ (2 Pet. 3:4)" (Basic Theology, p. 536).

Is this the apostasy you are accusing me of?

I assert with all of my heart that I am born again, believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of Scripture and a literal hermeneutic, believe in the trinity and the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as well as our Father God, believe in a biblical Christology including Christ's incarnation, the hypostatic union, His Second Coming, etc. I believe in spreading the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior throughout the world, and have given my entire life to doing so including 33 years in Japan, and Gospel trips to several other nations.

So that is who you are accusing of being an apostate. I have not "fallen away" from the faith, but am willing to die for it.

 

[John of Japan]

@Charlie24 & @37818 & @JD731 & @Van

Pray to the Lord Jesus Christ about this issue unless you wish to inquire more on the subject from me or from Jesus Christ about why it is a departure from the faith in Jesus Christ to seek the receiving or even the baptism of the Holy Ghost by a sign.

You are falsely representing me here. I said no such thing, nor do I believe it.

 

[John of Japan]

Friends on the BB, you know me. This is the first time in my entire life I've ever been accused of being an apostate, let alone here on the BB!! And I haven't even figured out what this guy, ChristB4Us thinks makes me apostate, or indeed what he thinks apostasy is!

This is really weird. Near as I can tell he thinks I'm an apostate for insisting that "baptism" always means "immersion." So according to him, all Baptists are apostate--at least that's what he seems to mean.

 

[Van]

1 Corinthians 12:13 NASB
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

1) I think the "one body" is the spiritual body of Christ.

2) I think "by one Spirit" refers to the Holy Spirit [third Person of the Trinity] acting as Christ's agent.

3) I think Matthew 3:11 refers to this immersion into Christ, so my reading says Christ will baptize some of you with the Holy Spirit acting as His agent, and others of you with the fire of Gehenna.

4) After being transferred into Christ's spiritual body, and undergoing the washing of regeneration, having "been made firm in Christ" we are sealed in Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father, so we are in Christ and they are in us.

 

[Charlie24]

Hi Charlie24, great topic.

I am not sure if you referenced the verse or verses describing the Holy Spirit's baptism. Not sure if you were referring to being transferred spiritually into Christ, (See Romans 6:3) or some other divine action. You certainly mentioned "in Him" (or in whom) several times so I am hoping that was what you were teaching.

Romans 6:4 says we have been buried "with Him" through baptism into death. I want to camp on this verse.

1) What does "buried with Him" mean? I believe the idea is that we (our individual human spirits) were immersed into Christ's spirit, resulting in us being "in Him" (spiritually transferred from being "in Adam, in the realm of darkness, and immersed in Christ spiritually.

2) What does "through baptism into death" mean? I believe the idea is that we were immersed figuratively in His shed blood (His sacrificial death to pay the ransom for all) resulting in our transformation from being separated from God due to our unholy state, to being made alive, united with God, due to undergoing the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ which removes all the consequences for our sin, past, present and future. Colossians 2:12 correlates being made alive with Christ being raised from the dead.

Final point, do not be discouraged by those finding fault and missing the central thrust of your OP.

Rom. 6:3 is very confusing for many, that's why I went to Col. 2 with the "baptism into Christ."

Many believe this baptism to be water baptism, it's not, it's a spiritual baptism that takes place in the heart of man at the very instant of accepting Christ.

The word "Baptism" in Rom. 6:3 is "baptsima" it's used in the sense of a Smith dipping a piece of hot metal/iron into water, tempering it, or like a Roman soldier dipping the tip of his sword in a bowl of blood before going into battle.

The idea is placing a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else to the point of altering its condition or its relationship to its previous condition.

"The baptism (baptisma) into Christ" refers to an act of God introducing a believing sinner into union with Jesus Christ. This union with Christ is identifying the sinner with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, changing his environment to a new environment into the Kingdom of God.

 

[kyredneck]

In short, being born again is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Right and so His believing disciples were finally born again of the Spirit at Pentecost when Jesus was no longer present with them.

This is so wrong. It's literally 'born from above', and when Christ spoke these words He was not implementing something new, He was revealing an ancient truth [Matthew 13:35]:

7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.' Jn 3

"thus is every one" includes the OT saints:

26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,
27 for it hath been written, 'Rejoice, O barren, who art not bearing; break forth and cry, thou who art not travailing, because many [are] the children of the desolate -- more than of her having the husband.'
28 And we, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise,
29 but as then he who was born according to the flesh did persecute him according to the spirit, so also now; Gal 4

 

[Charlie24]

I appreciate your friendly attitude, but you made a bald statement about tongues in your OP, and that is generally considered fair game for discussion on a debate board. However, I will respect your wishes and not go further on this with you, though someone else has mentioned it and I will discuss it with that person.


By "girts" I assume you mean "gifts"?

Yes, you'll find that I misspell lots of words. It seems my brain is not as quick as my fingers. I try to remember to proof read, but I forget that most of the time. Set in my ways I suppose.

You're of course free to discuss whatever you like on any of my threads, but that doesn't mean I'll join in.

I've been on the boards over 20 years, but my first time on these boards. Over the years, after arguing everything imaginable, I've become selective in what I choose to discuss.

So if you don't hear from me on any given subject, I've been there and done that, and have chosen to remain silent.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, you'll find that I misspell lots of words. It seems my brain is not as quick as my fingers. I try to remember to proof read, but I forget that most of the time. Set in my ways I suppose.

You're of course free to discuss whatever you like on any of my threads, but that doesn't mean I'll join in.

I've been on the boards over 20 years, but my first time on these boards. Over the years, after arguing everything imaginable, I've become selective in what I choose to discuss.

So if you don't hear from me on any given subject, I've been there and done that, and have chosen to remain silent.

I don't blame you at all. Part of the freedom of being on a board is choosing what you respond to, and indeed who you respond to.

 

[37818]

This is so wrong. It's literally 'born from above', and when Christ spoke these words He was not implementing something new, He was revealing an ancient truth:

7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.' Jn 3

"thus is every one" includes the OT saints:

26 and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all,
27 for it hath been written, 'Rejoice, O barren, who art not bearing; break forth and cry, thou who art not travailing, because many [are] the children of the desolate -- more than of her having the husband.'
28 And we, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise,
29 but as then he who was born according to the flesh did persecute him according to the spirit, so also now; Gal 4

At issue, is when the Spirit of truth, the Comforter was sent to be in the believers as Jesus promised.

John 14:16-17, And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

 

[kyredneck]

At issue, is when the Spirit of truth, the Comforter was sent to be in the believers as Jesus promised.

You said:

In short, being born again is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

...and I reiterate, that is so wrong.

 

[Charlie24]

You said:



...and I reiterate, that is so wrong.

Could you explain what you see wrong about the comment from 378.., "in short, being born again is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?"

Just interested in your view of salvation in relation to "the baptism of the Holy Spirit."

 

[37818]

You said:



...and I reiterate, that is so wrong.

Your mere denial explains nothing.

 

[Charlie24]

Could you explain what you see wrong about the comment from 378.., "in short, being born again is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?"

Just interested in your view of salvation in relation to "the baptism of the Holy Spirit."

In case you're wondering, I'm not that guy that sets traps to take advantage of another.

You'll soon find that I'm open and fair in discussion. I'm in search of truth, not who's right or wrong.

 

[kyredneck]

Could you explain what you see wrong about the comment from 378.., "in short, being born again is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?"

Do your own research for now, we'll discuss later.

Just interested in your view of salvation in relation to "the baptism of the Holy Spirit."

Concerning baptism of the Spirit, I agree with JoJ here:

I believe, following R. A. Torrey and others, that it is the empowering for service--the Holy Spirit gives power to serve God.

...which began at Pentecost:

49 And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high. Lu 24

8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1

...and which is NOT the same as the heavenly birth:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, 'How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'
5 Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.' Jn 3

When Christ spoke these words He was not speaking prophetically about Pentecost nor was He implementing something new, He was revealing an ancient truth [Matthew 13:35]

 

[kyredneck]

Your mere denial explains nothing.

K.