Tom Butler
New Member
I'm aware of churches that routinely have new-member classes, but most have them for those already baptized into membership. Maybe they should complete those classes before baptism.
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Baptism preceding Church Membership
- Thread starter DeaconPhil
- Start date
I'm aware of churches that routinely have new-member classes, but most have them for those already baptized into membership. Maybe they should complete those classes before baptism.
The church I left in Pennsylvania before moving to Tennessee actively purged their membership roles yearly. I was the deacon in charge of church membership and I was possitively impressed by their approach toward joining, discipline and inactive membership. The ratio there was an ongoing 90 - 95% active membership at any given time that showed up on Sunday morning. In Tennesse that's not the case. Maybe it's a type of cultural laissez-faire, which is fine and I just need to accept it and assimilate. I just wish they would be a little more serious about church membership and church discipline.
Tom Butler
New Member
Our church clerk is the guardian of our church roll. He keeps track and occasionally will ask the church to remove delinquent members. These are those who have not attended in at least a year, and mostly more than that.
But what are they converting to? Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation, or on joining a church? Are they still considered unclean until your church as Washed Them Clean? They must be for the church will not accept them until they are WASHED CLEAN BY THIS CHURCH.
I can't answer this, but it must have been more appealing (I'm not saying they are right), than the gospel they were hearing.
Tom Butler
New Member
I'm not quite on the same wave length with you, but let me take a stab at answering.
When one is converted (saved, redeemed, justified) he takes on Christ's righteousness (justification). We are still sinners, but Jesus blood, shed on the cross, covers our sin.
When one declares his faith in the Lord Jesus, the next step is baptism. By baptizing them based on their confession of faith, a church is being obedient to the Great Commission. With baptism comes membership in the local church.
Your comment about the church washing them clean is new to me. I've never heard that before. The church does not wash one clean. Baptism does not wash one clean. God declares them clean because they have been washed in the blood of the Lamb.
I'd love to hear you expand on your comment.
freeatlast
New Member
I am assuming that you are talking about people coming from another denomination being presented and the church is requiring them to be baptized in the Baptist church to be a member in the Baptist church even though they had been baptized before.
This is a common practice in most Baptist churches as well as many other denominations. I believe it is also un-biblical and makes a mockery of baptism. Baptism was never intended as a sign for membership in the local church. If it were then the eunuch in Acts was a church unto himself.
Baptism is an action played out by the believer uniting ones self with Christ, and the church, not uniting with a church. Our churches have went astray on this matter.
However that being said anyone who has not been baptized properly as spelled out in scripture needs to be baptized before they are considered for membership, but only because they would not be in proper fellowship with the Lord until it was done and not because it was intended as a symbol of becoming a member of a local church.
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What you say is true, but can you see this leaves you tied to the gospel for the circumcised, Moses' Law, and Ordinances'? Yes, will agree we see things differently, as I see you are in the Kingdom, and I know I am in the Bridegroom.
What I see is the difference in our Orientation, viz. our position and relationship to Jesus Christ. My study time is unequally divided between the Bible, and that presented by man. About ninety percent of my study time is in the Bible. To me the most important thing I have found to help me understand the Bible is s TIME. When did the World BEGIN, and when will it END? Within these extremes of TIME, I LIVE. Where in TIME can I find myself, as I live?
I have found by listening to my Lord Jesus Christ when I live. When we listen to Him we know what was the Past, what is Present, and what is Future.
Bear with me for a second, as I try to explain what I am talking about. We have one (1) person in the Bible indicating they are speaking to us, as we live. He has authority to do so by right of Apostleship given to him from Heaven. He has written us letters, and then even wrote us LOVE LETTERS while in Prison. I believe the Apostle that Christ Jesus chose for me. I know I can believe him for he says he was given THE GOSPEL I SHOULD BELIEVE in the PRESENT TIME.
The Great Commission is PAST, and it will be FUTURE, but today it is by the Grace of God, through Faith we are saved; it is a gift WITHOUT THE WORKS BY THE HAND OF MAN. Acts 2:38 is the Great Commission justification. That is for the domain of only those that accept the practices, laws, and ordinances of the Jew, the wife of God, along with the proselytes.
I claim to be in the Body of Christ, where we can look back to see at the Cross what is nailed on that tree. I have been Spiritually Operated on! Colossians 2:10-14, "And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11. In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross".
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Duh!!! My apologies for time-wasting and thread-derailing. I had forgotten that DP=OP in this thread!
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I am a bit hesitant about writing this post, as I have already made a fool of myself in my reply - Post 15 - to MCDirector.
However, I must say that I understand the bible to teach that every Christian is "in Christ", that is, in the Bridegroom. The idea that a person can be in Christ's kingdom, but not in Christ, seems strange to me.
What did Tom Butler write that made you think that he believes he is in the kingdom, but not in the Bridegroom? I have read his post several times, and looked in vain for anything that suggests such a thing.
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Tom Butler
New Member
I don't know what I said, either, David.
I have to admit that most of Ituttut's post went right over my head. Can anybody interpret for me?
From another thread:
Berean Bible Society teachings:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
"Seven Basic Bible Facts Every Christian Should Know and Believe"
by Robert C. Brock, editor of the Journal of Pauline Dispensationalism:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/literature/index.php?Mode=Display+Literature&ID=903
"Should Water Baptism Be Practiced Today?"
Doctrinal Tract by Kenneth Morgan:
Berean Bible Society teachings:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1017954587.html
"Seven Basic Bible Facts Every Christian Should Know and Believe"
by Robert C. Brock, editor of the Journal of Pauline Dispensationalism:
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/literature/index.php?Mode=Display+Literature&ID=903
"Should Water Baptism Be Practiced Today?"
Doctrinal Tract by Kenneth Morgan:
Dear fellow member Lamb of the fool club.I am a bit hesitant about writing this post, as I have already made a fool of myself in my reply - Post 15 - to MCDirector.
However, I must say that I understand the bible to teach that every Christian is "in Christ", that is, in the Bridegroom. The idea that a person can be in Christ's kingdom, but not in Christ, seems strange to me.
What did Tom Butler write that made you think that he believes he is in the kingdom, but not in the Bridegroom? I have read his post several times, and looked in vain for anything that suggests such a thing.
You may know that I am a dispensationalist Baptist. This is a dirty wordto most Baptist's, as well as other denominations. But so be it, for I do believe what was revealed to Paul by our Lord.
As to the Bridegroom, in Time we know a Bridegroom must have a Bride. I believe with careful study we can find all are not IN the Bridegroom, while they live. I have come to believe (account of scripture) in our predestination of salvation, we have Free Will to Choose of the Kingdom's that are in the Kingdom of God.
Our Christian friend Butler looks to me to be of the Kingdom Church as the Great Commission plays a great part in his belief. As we believe the Bible, I believe the truth that is found at Pentecost, but I also believe the truth of what I find on Damascus Road. What Truth is found at Pentecost? OLD! If we read Acts to verse 8, and then skip to James I too would believe the Great Commission. Why? Because we would only be able to understand the Kingdom Gospel of John the Baptist, which is the Kingdom is at Hand. It was ready to start, but could not for Israel REFUSED THEIR KING, MESSIAH. So we know the Tree was cut down. But we know at some point, that Kingdom will come.
But we keep reading Acts, and we find Jesus Christ speaking directly to man once again. THIS is NEW in anybodys language. What I say here is heretical to just about all, with gnashing of teeth, and renting of clothes. It is here, in Acts 9 that we find that NEW GOSPEL (Spiritual), that was hid by God until it was TIME to be told. Who will hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ from Heaven? We are told it is the GENTILE, and it will be they that will take the GRACE GOSPEL to the World. I would say God really knows how to make HIS PEOPLE JEALOUS.
Are we to try and hang onto the Old, when we can obtain the NEW? Galatians, chapter 2 tells me to let go of the Great Commission gospel, for those that are looking for that KINGDOM TO COME. I look for the RAPTURE.
Tom, I have found in scripture what applies to me. I believe it is available to all today. Perhaps my reply to Brother Lamb just a short time ago will help explain my understanding of the Great Commission. In short it was given to those that made Covenant with God, the people He choose. Jesus tells very pointedly that He did not come for the heathen, but only for His Lost Sheep of Israel. This is to whom the Great Commission was to be given, and only after Israel accepted their King, would the Gentile be preached to.
When I found this truth, it scared the living daylight out of me. What was I to believe if Jesus thought so little of me? I found Damascus Road, and found I had not 12 Apostles, but only ONE that I was to listen to. It is so much easier now than trying to find myself in all of the other Books of the Bible. We are to study the whole Bible to help us understand the purpose of God, but can only find yourself in the heavenlies with Our Lord when we read the Epistles of Paul.
Can it be found where any other Apostle is to be an Apostle to the Gentile? Is any other Apostle allowed to tell about the Body of Christ? Any other tell you about the Rapture, or about the Secret? Peter of the Great Commission Gospel says they can now be saved just like the Gentile, and He and they of Israel will be.
Thank you Jerome for reading my posts. They generate more interest than I thought. Do you find TRUTH in what our Apostle tells us?
Tom Butler
New Member
Brother Ituttut, thanks for your taking time to clarify your views. And thanks, Jerome, for the links. They helped my understanding.
I still don't buy your view, but I understand it better now. I know where you're coming from.
I still don't buy your view, but I understand it better now. I know where you're coming from.
Thank you Tom for your faithfulness, and testimony to our Lord Jesus Christ.
I talked to the pastor and asked him to clarify the term, "Promise of Baptism". He claimed that the candidate for membership when presented to the church for membership with the "Promise of Baptism" has full membership priviledges from that moment and doesn't need to be baptized. It's all done under the principle of inclusion rather than exclusion. I have two main problems with this: One, as a southern baptist church they are violating their own constitution which includes the baptist faith and message and states that baptism is "prerequisite" to membership. Secondly, and more importantly, I believe the Bible supports the idea of salvation and baptism before inclusion in the local assembly. Very frustrating for me!
So in other words the "promise" is a lie. :tear:
Deacon you are right on, according to scripture. I believe you are supporting and in the Body of Christ, for when you were saved you were automatically baptized (sealed) into the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We also today are the Praise of His Glory, as were those of Ephesus (Ephesians 1), as they trusted Jesus Christ, our living Lord who is in heaven after doing the Will of His Father. We believe we are sealed with that Holy Spirit of Promise. I would say verse 16 could be applied to you.
Down here we enjoy Bering with others that do believe, and trust in our Lord Jesus Christ.
What is in that "promise"? Surely not salvation, but a promise is a promise. When the church next has baptism services, the promise will be fulfilled. They will then be a Full Fledged Member of a Baptist Church, which church hopefully believes in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, and not by applying the Works of the Hands of man to make sure.