Baptism prior to the 1520s

[Frank]

Matt:
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Re # 3 of your list - the NT does refer to pastors eg Eph 4:11-12.
Yes, However, they are not given any tile of Honor. This violates the declarative statement of Christ himself. cf. Mat. 23:8-10.
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Re #4 - Why only pastors and deacons? Why not the people listed in eg I Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11-12? Or bishops? Seems to me that the church you attend is as selective in its use of Scripture as the rest of us...
First, pastors and bishops are the same office. The qualifications are specified for those offices. Please note the context of I Tim. 3 Titus 1. God gave specific authority for the organization of the church. This eliminates general application. You are comparing apples to oranges.
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Re #5d - utterly unwarranted and indeed expressly contradicted by Scripture. Your ecclesial tradition may interpret Matt 26:30 as "the orginal form Christ specified for his people" but that's not what that verse says! And what does your comment say about the psalmists who praised God using the psaltry, timbrel and harp?

I am under the law of Christ, not Moses. Cf.I Cor.9:21, Gal.5:4.
The law of Christ commands us to sing. cf. Eph. 5:19, Col.3:16, I Cor 14:15, Romans 15:9, Hebrews 2:12, Acts 16:24,25,Mat. 26:30, James 5:13. There is not one passage in the new testament that authorizes the playing of a mechanical instrument in the worship to God under the law of Christ. The practice of using instruments began 500 years after the church was establsihed. It was introduced by the Catholic church. There was such a revolt inthe 600's that the heathen practice ceased for nearly seventy years. However, some men do things because they like it , not because God likes it.

I do not burn incense, offer the blood of bulls and goats,or wash in a basin of the temple.Moses, David and the Israelites did so. Do you do these too? If not, why not?

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1. Congregational government by church members and congregational autonomy. Officers of the church are pastors, elders and deacons - Acts 20:17-28; Eph 4:11; I Tim 3:1-11, Titus 1:1-9; we are as selective in our use of Scripture there as you!

2. Those listed in I Tim 3:1-11; Titus 1:1-9 with two caveats: (a) the passages concerned strictly speaking refer to bishops and deacons rather than specifically pastors and deacons, but we take them to refer to anyone in authority; (b) we would interpret the reference to 'husband of one wife' as a prohibition of polygamy rather than your church's interpretation of marriage and children being mandatory. We would also interpret I Tim 3:11 as permitting women to hold those offices equally.
You contradict yourself and the scriptures. God has granted NO AUTHORITY FOR WOMEN IN THE ASSEMBLY. I Tim. 2: 12-14. Women are to be in SUBJECTION and not have authority over men. God gave the reason why this is the case. cf.vs.13,14.
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3. See reference to the psalms above; we would interpret that as permitting any instruments to be used as the Spirit leads.
The spirit does not lead. It is the word of God that directs. Romans 10;17 Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The spirit uses the word to lead. Eph. 6:17, Hebrews 4:12. See the eight passages found in the covenant of Christ that commands us to sing.
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4. Locks Heath Free Church does not believe in baptismal regeneration, but rather salvation by the grace of God through faith eg: Rom 5:1; 8:1. We tend to be agnostic on the whole Calvinism vs Arminianism Dead Horse as we recognise that both can be argued from Scripture.
One may argue any thing. However, the truth saves John 8:32.
Every person converted by example in the new testament had in common the following:
1. Heard the word. Romans 10;17
2. Believed the word. John 8: 24.
3. Repented or acted upon his belief. Luke 13:3, Acts 17:30
4. Confessed Jesus. Acts 8:37
5. Baptized for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Col. 2:12, I Pet. 3:21.

Sincerely,
Frank

 

[Claudia_T]

When we were told to go baptizing all nations, teaching them to observe ALL that jesus commanded us, was part of the package...

Matthew 28:
19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Book of Revelation clearly points to a certain group of people who compose God's true Church...

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This "WOMAN" symbolizes the Church.

Jer:6:2: I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.


Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


THE SCRIPTURES, WHILE FORETELLING OF A DREADFUL APOSTASY (see Revelation 14:6-12, ALSO PLAINLY TEACH THAT JUST BEFORE THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST, MANY WILL BE RESCUED FROM THE DARKNESS OF ERROR AND SUPERSTITION. ONCE MORE THE EARTH IS TO BE LIGHTENED BY THE GLORY OF GOD. THE PURE TRUTHS OF THE BIBLE ARE TO SHINE FORTH. AND IN THIS TIME OF HEAVENLY ILLUMINATION MARKING THE APPROACHING END OF THE AGE, THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT ARE AGAIN TO BE MANIFEST IN THE TRUE CHURCH. "IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, SAITH GOD, I WILL POUR OUT OF MY SPIRIT UPON ALL FLESH: AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS: AND ON MY SERVANTS AND ON MY HANDMAIDENS I WILL POUR OUT IN THOSE DAYS OF MY SPIRIT; AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY." ACTS 2:17, 18; JOEL 2:28, 29.

IN CLEAR TERMS THE PROPHET JOHN SPEAKS OF "THE REMNANT," OR THE LAST CHURCH, AS THOSE WHO "KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST." REVELATION 12:17. IN ANOTHER PASSAGE THE SAME WRITER GIVES A PLAIN DEFINITION OF WHAT HE MEANS BY THE "TESTIMONY OF JESUS." WHEN ON ONE OCCASION JOHN ATTEMPTED TO WORSHIP THE ANGEL WHO APPEARED TO HIM IN VISION, THE ANGEL SAID:


"SEE THOU DO IT NOT: I AM THY FELLOW SERVANT, AND OF THY BRETHREN THAT HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS: WORSHIP GOD." REVELATION 19:10.

UNDER SIMILAR CIRCUMSTANCES THE SAME ANGEL SAID, AS RECORDED IN ANOTHER PLACE:

"SEE THOU DO IT NOT: FOR I AM THY FELLOW SERVANT, AND OF THY BRETHREN THE PROPHETS." REVELATION 22:9.

THE THOUGHT EXPRESSED IS THE SAME IN BOTH THESE PASSAGES. IN ONE, HOWEVER, JOHN'S "BRETHREN" ARE SAID TO HAVE "THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS;" IN THE OTHER THESE "BRETHREN" ARE CALLED "THE PROPHETS."

THEREFORE IT IS THE PROPHETS WHO HAVE "THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS;" AND THE ANGEL WHO APPEARED TO JOHN IS EVIDENTLY THE SPECIAL MESSENGER WHO CONVEYS INSTRUCTION TO ALL THE PROPHETS,--DOUBTLESS THE ANGEL GABRIEL, WHO IS MENTIONED AS HAVING APPEARED TO DANIEL. SEE DANIEL 8:16; 9:21. THE SAME ANGEL FURTHER SAID TO JOHN, "THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY." REVELATION 19:10.

COMPARING THE BIBLE EXPRESSION, "THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS," WITH THE STATEMENT OF REVELATION 12:17 CONCERNING THE "REMNANT . . . WHICH KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST," WE CONCLUDE THAT PRIOR TO CHRIST'S SECOND COMING HIS TRUE CHURCH WILL BE KEEPING HIS COMMANDMENTS, AND THAT THEY WILL HAVE THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.

THE RAPID FULFILLMENT OF THE PREDICTIONS OF HOLY SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE SIGNS AND EVENTS WHICH WERE TO MARK THE CLOSING SCENES OF EARTH'S HISTORY, IS A SURE EVIDENCE THAT WE ARE NOW LIVING IN THE LAST DAYS. THEREFORE A COMPANY OF CHRISTIAN PEOPLE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND WHO HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST--THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY--SHOULD TODAY BE IN EXISTENCE. WHERE MAY THEY BE FOUND?


Revelation 14:6-12 also specifically points to the 4th commandment as one that is being ignored (see verse 6, in which the Angel of Revelation quotes from the Sabbath commandment) a warning is given in regards to this neglect of the 4th commandment (which has been changed by the Roman Catholic Church to Sunday).

6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7: Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8: And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.


...and says God's true people will be they who keep the commandments (see verse 12) Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Matthew 5:
16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Matthew 28:
19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Also, Romans chapter 6 CLEARLY teaches that Baptism is to be a symbol of regeneration into a new man, one who has allowed the old man of sin to be buried, to die. Sin is lawlessness, transgression of the law

1Jn:3:4: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5: For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7: For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8: Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.


Once again, God's true Church are composed of they who "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" Revelation 14:12 -and that is the true Church that we are to be baptised into, the Church who keep the commandments of God (all 10 of the commandments including the Sabbath) AND who have the Spirit of Prophecy.

They who claim they are in God's Church but who teach we are "no longer under the law and thus we have a license to sin" COMPLETELY misunderstand the Scriptures on that point. Please read:
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/jones_waggoner.htm

It isnt some sort of "sprinkling with magic holy water" that saves you. It is faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour who died for your sins and it is simply obedience to what God commands you to do... that saves you. You are not saved because you perform some magical rites. And one thing God told you to do is... GET BAPTISED. You can analyze that to death... but it isnt recommended. If you get baptised but do not experience the change of heart and the burying of the old man of sin, then your baptism means absolutely nothing.

[ July 20, 2005, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[Claudia_T]

"We are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Rom. 6:4.

Christ made baptism the entrance to His spiritual kingdom. He made this a positive condition with which all must comply who wish to be acknowledged as under the authority of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Those who receive the ordinance of baptism thereby make a public declaration that they have renounced the world, and have become members of the royal family, children of the heavenly King. . . .

Christ enjoins those who receive this ordinance to remember that they are bound by a solemn covenant to live to the Lord. They are to use for Him all their entrusted capabilities, never losing the realization that they bear God's sign of obedience to the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, that they are subjects of Christ's kingdom, partakers of the divine nature. They are to surrender all they have and are to God, employing all their gifts to God's glory.

Those who are baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have accepted the invitation, "Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty" (2 Cor. 6:17, 18). "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (chapter 7:1). . . .

Let those who received the imprint of God by baptism heed these words, remembering that upon them the Lord has placed His signature, declaring them to be His sons and daughters. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism, to receive the candidates who have renounced the world and have received Christ into the soul temple. These candidates have entered into the family of God, and their names are inscribed in the Lamb's book of life.

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Claudia Thompson

[ July 17, 2005, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Matt Black]

Time for me to take Ed's sound advice, Frank, and bow out of this particularly fruitless dialogue of the deaf.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Frank]

Matt:
Even the Lord put the devil to silence when he used the scriptures.You remind me of a dog that chases his own tail. He never gets it. He just continuosly runs in a circle getting no where and learning nothing. Since you and Ed like animals so well perhaps you can grasp this concept.

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by Briguy:
Hi bmmer, you made some good points. After my last post I did run into the "afar off" in Ephesians but have not had time to see if the Greek word is the same in both places. It could just be that that term "afar off" is just what the interpreters put in but the Greek may be different. Can you check that out? I will try as well.

You made a good point for me in what you said about Peter not accepting the Gentiles, even much later in the book of Acts. I think to say that God wrote the Bible and put words that even those speaking did not get is a slippery slope to go down. It opens up far too many other ways of looking at verses and would give people a right to claim that any Bible concept could mean anything because God of course meant it differently. I think it best to stick with direct context. Direct context and audience in this case points that the baptism in Acts 2:38 was to get the jews to a new status, that being a move away from being an ememy of God.

Baptism in the early church was important. The reason the Enuch rejoiced was that he proved to himself he was a child of God. I believe in the early church everyone around knew that baptism = commitment. You would not be baptized and open yourself up to that great of persecution unless you really believed and were "transformed". So, In the early church and for the Enuch, Baptism was a needed element to confirm salvation, but not then or now is it the means of salvation.

Acts a little later says that when the gospel was preached to the Gentiles, "those who God ordained, believed" Hmmm what if one is Baptized but God did not ordain them to believe?? I will let you ponder that.

Thanks again for your response. Hope you are well. I know how fast life can go. It seems like just the other day my son was crawling, and now this fall he will be in high school (we homeschool so it is not as hard as it could be but still I am feeling old)

Take care, In Christ,
Brian

BriGuy,

bmerr here. I just found this post. I'm such a slacker! Just been busy. I did have the pleasure of baptizing both of my sons for the remission of their sins the other night. Pretty cool stuff!

Anyway, I'll see what i can find out about the "afar off" stuff and the other issues, and I'll get back with you.

Be careful out there, my friend.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Briguy]

Hi bmerr, I will wait for you. I may look up some Greek stuff myself. Talk to you soon. Glad to hear your boys received Christ and then got Baptized to signify this change of heart (he he). Seriously, it is a great joy to know our children will share Heaven with us some day. God bless you and your family!!

In Christ our Lord,
Brian