How far from Tampa?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Baptism Rome vs Protestant
- Thread starter Christforums
- Start date
Christforums
Active Member
By those very words (per verbatim) I agree with you. Those words do convey Baptismal Regeneration, and I do not agree. Though, one could argue that monergism doesn't rely on any credo or profession of faith, doesn't guarantee, etc. In other words, the sacrament of baptism conveys, "grace", and grace is by no merit or works of our own (including the baptizer).
And if I may, let me say, I have listened to a Pastor in the LCMS and during our study after weeks, he admitted to not having read the entire Scriptures from cover to cover. This isn't isolated to Lutherans, but I have encountered a lot of young Pastors which really shouldn't be in their office. Needlessly said, I find the information you provided poorly worded, unlike the Westminster Divines of the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Last edited:
In addition to the presence of young pastors who are not qualified to be pastoring congregations, the LCMS now has people who are poorly trained and installed as deacons to provide Word and Sacrament to many smaller congregations within districts that cannot call full-time pastors. I attended the 2016 LCMS National Convention in Milwaukee as an observer which passed a resolution providing for this. It was expected to be hotly contested as the president of the LCMS was staunchly against it. It passed by an overwhelming vote. These deacons study under mentors in each district. No formal seminary training is required although in some cases they are sent to St. Louis for some course work providing they have financial support from their district.
In the area in which I live, there is only one Lutheran church which is confessional and practices closed (close) communion. When my wife and I first moved here there were two ELC congregations in the area but, unfortunately, since covid both are now closed. The confessional LCMS congregation has picked up most of those former members as well as many former ELCA members that jumped ship after that synod completely lost it's theological moorings. The other LCMS church has close ties to the ELCA congregation. The LCMS seems to be slipping fast.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
About an hour north.
So then, come to Pennsylvania and study at Westminster University by Philadelphia, buy a large Cross and wear it outside for everyone to see, read the Bible from cover to cover and then preach it like one of the elect. There is some money in it but not as much as other professions….just look at mark Cuban. That boy pegged his way to fame and fortune the old fashion way, by earning it.
there is an excellent PB church there if interested….there is another one in Winter Garden but that’s nearer to Orlando. My preference is the Tampa one…that pastor/elder is very good as well as been trained up by our best pastors. If interested, let me know.
Funny cause my wife and I were going to visit the LCMS church down the block from me. Hmmm, slipping fast ya say. They had a pastor two yrs ago that was caught accosting the church secretary and installing cameras to see up her dress if you could believe it….a real nut job.
I should have explained what I meant by slipping. Most of the liberal wing of the LCMS left in 80's after Seminex (Concordia Seminary in Exile) dissolved and formed a liberal synod.
What I meant by slipping is the lack of educational preparation for people given access to their pulpits. I don't mean they need to be graduates from seminary but adequately prepared to teach. Also, there are less and less of what can be called 'Confessional Lutheran' congregations. The LCMS is congregational in polity so they always have opportunity to withdraw from the Synod if they vote to do so. Some have done so and joined other 'Confessional' synods like the one the OP attends.
The big controversy in the Synod now seems to be whether or not congregations allowing non-LCMS members to receive communion should be allowed to remain within the LCMS.
In one local LCMS church I am welcome to receive communion as long as I profess Christ as Lord & Savior (and it says so in their bulletin) and in the other LCMS congregation I better be a card carrying member of the Synod.
Also, how Lutherans define 'evangelical' is much different than what non-Lutherns do. That's another topic. Worship styles vary widely within the LCMS. In some there's a loose liturgy and contemporary music and in others it's 'bells and smells' and you will think you are at a pontifical high mass-minus the pontif of course!
Last edited:
37818
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your explanation.
[As a Baptist, I only understand believer's immersion as being the Biblical teaching, whether after or before salvation. And so never a requirement in order to be saved.]
There are none in the new Covenant who were not born again, and to be such, must be of age enough to hear, comprehend, and receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and thus babies and small children would not qualify, but I see it that God made provision for those such as babes and very young, mentally challenged to be partakers of salvation, doing for them what they cannot do for themselves.
What added benefits do babies get from water baptism that non baptized babes do not get then?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
The EXACT same thing that a "circumcised" baby received under the Old Covenant. As Paul warns, one is not a Jew who is circumcised outwardly only, but rather, one must be a Jew inwardly ... choosing to DO as God SAYS. However, a circumcised child (not an infant, but a youth), knows that his parents were under the Covenant of God and believed enough to step out in obedience with faith that the circumcision of their child would one day produce a harvest of righteousness. As a circumcised Jewish infant, you had a tangible promise that you were part of the community and marked out - reserved and called - to choose to be part of the People of God. It did not become REAL, until you became a man and CHOSE for yourself to honor God. However you grew from infancy with the knowledge of the promise and expectation of its fulfillment.
The baptized infant of Christian Parents carries the same knowledge of the belief and promise of God to their parents ... the expectation that "this promise is for you and your children and all who are far off" is something that your parents fully expect includes YOU (and acted on that belief).
They may be 100% wrong, but that is still the benefit.
[I say this as someone that grew up under the generational curse that: ... "God helps those that help themselves." and "Religion is the opiate of the masses" and "when you die, you don't even leave a hole to prove that you were here" ... that was my family legacy.]
Last edited:
I think an additional question would be: 'What about un-baptized babies who die? Are they bound for Hell?
We entrust them to God's Mercy. We are bound by the sacraments, God is not.
To the Lord though would be no difference between Children been baptized or not, as To Him getting wet does not make one enter into the New Covenant
Per Rome, they all go to Limbo
Per the Bible silent but we can say that God will always do right, and that all elected babies will make it
And in my opinion, God chose tp elect unto salvation all babies and very small children, not because their are born innocent, buy due to great Grace, mercy and love
The Catholic Church has no formal teaching on Limbo. It doesn't deny the existence of Limbo but nor does it teach its existence. The Church emphasis is, as you said, on 'great Grace, mercy and love'.
Except that Rome basis all of that upon a Sacramentalism work effort to merit eventually salvation theology
For centuries though was held to be a place where non baptized babies entered forever, and also non baptized "good people" so less then Heaven, not nearly as bad ad Purgatory, much less Hell, sorta like an eternal Heavenly nursery
Limbo has never been an official doctrine of the Catholic Church
Christforums
Active Member
"Luther’s sacramental theology straddles between two extremes – the ex opere operato concept of Roman Catholicism and the baptism as symbolic external sign without real content of radical Protestantism and others. Luther sees baptism as one of the means of grace or sacraments. In the external form of water and together with the Word of God, baptism conveys God’s grace in forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Luther’s sacramental concept is extensive and covers both the Old Testament and New Testament. Old Testament rites are no less sacraments and their meaning is not exhausted by their symbolic value. Luther sees sacraments as masks behind which God works. God is present everywhere in the act. Even Jacob’s dream of the ladder and his wrestling with God at Jabbok has sacramental significance to Luther. In these appearances, as in baptism, God meets the believer. Both baptism and circumcision are seen as entry sacraments. They are not only just signs of the covenant, they are the covenant itself.
There is NO CONTRADICTION with Sola Fide. As to the relation between faith and baptism, for Luther baptism required faith for justification, but baptism and not faith provided the certainty of salvation. This is contra Baptists and others who see baptism merely as confession of faith. Luther says that God can save without baptism, but in the church we must judge and teach, in accordance with God’s ordered power, that without that outward baptism, no one is saved.(Luther’s Work Vol3 p274). In another word, Luther understood that baptism is NOT the cause of our salvation but God chose to save through baptism. Salvation is given in baptism, though not because of faith. God is the cause of our salvation, it is not man’s faith or baptism on its own [emphasis added]. The faith for justification is a gift of God lest any man should boast. Like in other sacraments, baptism is an activity in which God works salvation. But baptism is not the only mean by which God can save. That is why Luther could believe that babies who died before they can be baptised are saved. The thief on the cross who repented and trusted Jesus but has no chance to be baptised is undoubtedly saved too.
So when Lutherans say that baptism saves, they are not talking about “baptismal regeneration” as how other Protestants understand it. Baptism as a church rite saves nobody. It is God’s work in baptism that grants forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Faith receives God’s grace through this sacrament. This is where infant baptism comes in." - Martin Luther’s Understanding of Baptism
There is NO CONTRADICTION with Sola Fide. As to the relation between faith and baptism, for Luther baptism required faith for justification, but baptism and not faith provided the certainty of salvation. This is contra Baptists and others who see baptism merely as confession of faith. Luther says that God can save without baptism, but in the church we must judge and teach, in accordance with God’s ordered power, that without that outward baptism, no one is saved.(Luther’s Work Vol3 p274). In another word, Luther understood that baptism is NOT the cause of our salvation but God chose to save through baptism. Salvation is given in baptism, though not because of faith. God is the cause of our salvation, it is not man’s faith or baptism on its own [emphasis added]. The faith for justification is a gift of God lest any man should boast. Like in other sacraments, baptism is an activity in which God works salvation. But baptism is not the only mean by which God can save. That is why Luther could believe that babies who died before they can be baptised are saved. The thief on the cross who repented and trusted Jesus but has no chance to be baptised is undoubtedly saved too.
So when Lutherans say that baptism saves, they are not talking about “baptismal regeneration” as how other Protestants understand it. Baptism as a church rite saves nobody. It is God’s work in baptism that grants forgiveness of sins and eternal life. Faith receives God’s grace through this sacrament. This is where infant baptism comes in." - Martin Luther’s Understanding of Baptism
Perhaps not official Dogma, but very much was believed in
That is NOT though Pauline Justification, as that would be saved by Grace alone received thru faith alone, and that saving faith comes thru and from the Holy Spirit Himself, and not thru any sacrament