Baptism - Sprinkled or Dunked?

[Charlie24]

Jesus the Good Shepherd didn’t leave a book and say work it out for yourself and if you mess up interpretation you will be destroyed.

Jesus established an authoritive Church founded on the Apostles and their successors would Shepherd the flock down the ages.

Yes, you're correct, He didn't just leave us a book and leave it for us figure out.

He gave us this,

John 14:26

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

That's not a promise to just the soon to be apostles, it's a promise to all who will dare take Him at His word.

 

[Cathode]

Yes, you're correct, He didn't just leave us a book and leave it for us figure out.

He gave us this,

John 14:26

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

That's not a promise to just the soon to be apostles, it's a promise to all who will dare take Him at His word.

No, Jesus said this to His Apostles, who heard Jesus preaching directly and The Holy Spirit would make them recall everything Jesus spoke.

This is not a promise to you to interpret Scriptural texts correctly, this is precisely why Bible alonism is so messed up, they don’t understand how The Holy Spirit operates.

 

[Charlie24]

No, Jesus said this to His Apostles, who heard Jesus preaching directly and The Holy Spirit would make them recall everything Jesus spoke.

This is not a promise to you to interpret Scriptural texts correctly, this is precisely why Bible alonism is so messed up, they don’t understand how The Holy Spirit operates.

See, there's some of your problem, you deny the Great Teacher and His promise.

You will continue to rely on other men, I will continue to rely on Him.

It's my bedtime, I enjoyed the conversation and sincerely hope you will consider putting in the time to read Romans.

 

[David Lamb]

The closest thing that I have personally witnessed to infant baptism is a formal dedication.

The parents bring their infant child before the congregation, the pastor anoints the child's forehead with water, representing the Holy Spirit, and the parents make a formal dedication to raise that child in the ways of Lord.

It's based on Prov. 22:6

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

I have come across dedication before, but never with any physical anointing of the baby. It is more a thanksgiving for the birth of the child.

 

[Cathode]

See, there's some of your problem, you deny the Great Teacher and His promise.

You will continue to rely on other men, I will continue to rely on Him.

It's my bedtime, I enjoyed the conversation and sincerely hope you will consider putting in the time to read Romans.

First the promise is made to the Apostles very specifically.

The Holy Spirit would teach them by memory and make them remember all of what Jesus preached to them orally.

So one, the promise is made to The Apostles specifically.

And two, it was so that they would recall Jesus preaching and teaching by The Holy Spirit.

This is not a promise made to all and not a promise of correct textual interpretation of scripture. The Holy Spirit teaches in the memory, by recall of what had already been preached orally. This is what Catholics call Apostolic oral tradition.

This is why Bible alonism is the mother of every wind of doctrine and conflicting interpretation of Scripture, and they all credit The Holy Spirit with all their wrongful interpretations of Scripture.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding that Peter warns of. Private interpreters are the “ignorant and unstable” that twist scripture to their destruction.

 

[Charlie24]

First the promise is made to the Apostles very specifically.

The Holy Spirit would teach them by memory and make them remember all of what Jesus preached to them orally.

So one, the promise is made to The Apostles specifically.

And two, it was so that they would recall Jesus preaching and teaching by The Holy Spirit.

This is not a promise made to all and not a promise of correct textual interpretation of scripture. The Holy Spirit teaches in the memory, by recall of what had already been preached orally. This is what Catholics call Apostolic oral tradition.

This is why Bible alonism is the mother of every wind of doctrine and conflicting interpretation of Scripture, and they all credit The Holy Spirit with all their wrongful interpretations of Scripture.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding that Peter warns of. Private interpreters are the “ignorant and unstable” that twist scripture to their destruction.

1 Cor. 2:12-13

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

This is what the Holy Spirit does, giving spiritual truths to born-again spiritual men.

But you've got read and study, Cathode. Can't never could!

 

[Charlie24]

I have come across dedication before, but never with any physical anointing of the baby. It is more a thanksgiving for the birth of the child.

David, I have never seen it practiced in a Baptist Church.

I have witnessed it in a Pentecostal Church.

I have Pentecostal friends, they invite me to their revivals and I invite them to mine.

They are not holy rollers, in that case I wouldn't go.

 

[Cathode]

1 Cor. 2:12-13

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

This is what the Holy Spirit does, giving spiritual truths to born-again spiritual men.

But you've got read and study, Cathode. Can't never could!

The Holy Spirit teaches the public revelation in all Truth through the Apostles and their successors.

This is called Apostolic Tradition.

Essentially, Apostolic Tradition is the living Voice of Christ transmitted through the Apostles and their successors.

“ He who listens to you, listens to me “

The Holy Spirit teaches by recall operating in the memory, all the spoken teachings of Jesus down the ages.

“ My sheep know my voice “

The Apostolic successors speak with Jesus voice, the same preaching and Truth He imparted to the Apostles guaranteed by The Holy Spirit.

This is why Protestantism is fundamentally wrong. The Holy Spirit does not guarantee each man’s textual criticism of scripture making them some kind of direct oracle.
This is easily recognisable to all, when we see each Bible aloner come up with so many conflicting interpretations and doctrines, manifestly not God guided.

If everyone who picked up the Bible and interpreted the exact meaning from it, then this would be manifestly how God operates, despite human weakness.

This is not what is happening. Bible alonism is not unified, no interpretation or doctrine is settled among them. Even today, Protestantism is conflicted on the basics like Baptism, and is no more resolved on the subject than it was 500 years ago, and in fact is even less settled and more divided as time progresses.

The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of Truth, and the Truth is singular and One.

The true interpretation of Scripture is singular and handed down from from father to son in Apostolic Tradition, not surmised by each man’s textual criticism of scripture, which is manifest chaos and lawlessness.

Where each man interprets what seems right in his own eyes. Lawlessness.

 

[Walter]

You know as well as I there no such thing as infant baptism found in the Scripture.

There's no work in saying yes

Why are all the Early Church Fathers and Christian scholars quoting scripture as meaning baptism is Regeneration?

“And dipped himself,’ says [the Scripture], ‘seven times in Jordan.’ It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'” Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).

“When, however, the prescript is laid down that ‘without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (chiefly on the ground of that declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless one be born of water..., he hath not life.'” Tertullian, On Baptism, 12:1 (A.D. 203).

“The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sins, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit.” Origen, Commentary on Romans, 5:9 (A.D. 244).

All of them call Baptism being “ Born again “.

Notice they all quoted and interpreted the Scripture the same way.

No Christian believed Baptism was just symbolic for over 1500 years until Zwingli invented it.

Zwingli was the origin of this human doctrine and tradition of men. Not the Bible.

They don't give a flip what all Christians believed for the first 1500 years and the absence of historical record of Christians believing the way they do. And, you were just told your salvation is in peril if you believe that and apparently all those people who called themselves Christians for the first 1500 years are in Hell.

The Landmark Missionary Baptist will try to hitch their wagon to different heretical groups that also didn't believe the way todays Baptist do. Baptist succesionism has been debunked by honest Baptist historians.

They have to ignore the writings of the early church because there's no writing of the early church that supports their beliefs. I have even been told on this board that the absence of writers supporting their position is because The Catholic Church destroyed those writings. I find that interesting seeing how The Catholic Church failed to destroy the gnostic writing. They will always say nothing matters except their spin on scripture.

 

[Charlie24]

The Holy Spirit teaches the public revelation in all Truth through the Apostles and their successors.

This is called Apostolic Tradition.

Essentially, Apostolic Tradition is the living Voice of Christ transmitted through the Apostles and their successors.

“ He who listens to you, listens to me “

The Holy Spirit teaches by recall operating in the memory, all the spoken teachings of Jesus down the ages.

“ My sheep know my voice “

The Apostolic successors speak with Jesus voice, the same preaching and Truth He imparted to the Apostles guaranteed by The Holy Spirit.

This is why Protestantism is fundamentally wrong. The Holy Spirit does not guarantee each man’s textual criticism of scripture making them some kind of direct oracle.
This is easily recognisable to all, when we see each Bible aloner come up with so many conflicting interpretations and doctrines, manifestly not God guided.

If everyone who picked up the Bible and interpreted the exact meaning from it, then this would be manifestly how God operates, despite human weakness.

This is not what is happening. Bible alonism is not unified, no interpretation or doctrine is settled among them. Even today, Protestantism is conflicted on the basics like Baptism, and is no more resolved on the subject than it was 500 years ago, and in fact is even less settled and more divided as time progresses.

The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of Truth, and the Truth is singular and One.

The true interpretation of Scripture is singular and handed down from from father to son in Apostolic Tradition, not surmised by each man’s textual criticism of scripture, which is manifest chaos and lawlessness.

Where each man interprets what seems right in his own eyes. Lawlessness.

The apostles were the foundation of the Church, they built the Church and set it in order.

The Scripture does not teach they passed down their apostleship.

This is another doctrine of men. Is It possible to actually count the doctrines of men in RCC?

 

[canadyjd]

Paul warns that you can have faith to move mountains but not have Love. So your idea doesn’t fit with Scripture.
The good works don’t automatically follow the Faith obviously. Good works flow from Love.

We are being saved as remain faithful in grace.

You are in error because you don’t understand scripture.

1 John 4:8 “Brethren, let us love one another because love is from God.”

We don’t have salvation because we love, we love because God has saved us by Grace and indwells us, gifting us with His love.

This is consistent with Paul’s statements in 1 Corinthians which you quoted. Without love, we have nothing, we are nothing, our works are nothing. Every good work means nothing unless we possess the love God has gifted to us. As Paul states, all our good works are filthy rags in God’s sight, unless we are doing His will.

It is consistent with Jesus’s warning about doing the will of God the Father.

Catholics, in general, are NOT doing the will of God the Father. They are doing the will of men who claim to be the voice of God. They are doing the will of corrupt priests. They are doing the will of a RCC that has, from its foundation in the 4th century, corrupted scripture and persecuted to the death every Christian that dared to disagree.

They are doing the will of RCC church that has as official church policy (until about 125 years ago) of inquisition, genital mutilation of choir boys to keep their voices from changing, and, to this very day, moving peadophile priests from parish to parish and protecting the peado priests instead of protecting the children.

Catholics, in general and imo, don’t really care about doing “God’s will”. They are doing what the RCC tells them to do to gain salvation, believing the falsehood from the RCC that is God’s will.

Peace to you

 

[Walter]

You are in error because you don’t understand scripture.

1 John 4:8 “Brethren, let us love one another because love is from God.”

We don’t have salvation because we love, we love because God has saved us by Grace and indwells us, gifting us with His love.

This is consistent with Paul’s statements in 1 Corinthians which you quoted. Without love, we have nothing, we are nothing, our works are nothing. Every good work means nothing unless we possess the love God has gifted to us. As Paul states, all our good works are filthy rags in God’s sight, unless we are doing His will.

It is consistent with Jesus’s warning about doing the will of God the Father.

Catholics, in general, are NOT doing the will of God the Father. They are doing the will of men who claim to be the voice of God. They are doing the will of corrupt priests. They are doing the will of a RCC that has, from its foundation in the 4th century, corrupted scripture and persecuted to the death every Christian that dared to disagree.

They are doing the will of RCC church that has as official church policy (until about 125 years ago) of inquisition, genital mutilation of choir boys to keep their voices from changing, and, to this very day, moving peadophile priests from parish to parish and protecting the peado priests instead of protecting the children.

Catholics, in general and imo, don’t really care about doing “God’s will”. They are doing what the RCC tells them to do to gain salvation, believing the falsehood from the RCC that is God’s will.

Peace to you

You might want to clean up your own house before pointing fingers at Catholic clergy. Lot's of Baptist clergy and youth ministers diddling kids. A whole tv series spotlighting Independent fundamentalist Baptist predators and the cover ups. I was a member of a Baptist church that had a pastor diddling kids and the leadership covered it up and to this day deny it ever happened. Check out: stopbaptistpredators.com or Let Us Prey: A Ministry of Scandals (Hulu)

Why don't we just agree that no child abuse is acceptable regardless of denomination.

 

[rockytopva]

I was baptized three times... GARBC Baptist, Freewill Baptist, and Pentecostal Holiness. All of which I consider fundamentalist churches and i have no regrets. I don't know if I would ever consider being baptized a fourth time. One reason, of course, it is not necessary. Most importantly I worry about where these journeys will take folk these days.

 

[canadyjd]

You might want to clean up your own house before pointing fingers at Catholic clergy. Lot's of Baptist clergy and youth ministers diddling kids. A whole tv series spotlighting Independent fundamentalist Baptist predators and the cover ups. I was a member of a Baptist church that had a pastor diddling kids and the leadership covered it up and to this day deny it ever happened. Check out: stopbaptistpredators.com or Let Us Prey: A Ministry of Scandals (Hulu)

Why don't we just agree that no child abuse is acceptable regardless of denomination.

Of course child abuse is not “acceptable” (what an odd way to refer to such horror).

The difference, of course, is that Baptist churches are generally autonomous. Failure to report the abuse is a local church issue.

With the RCC, the abuse is covered up from the Pope down. The Cardinals and Bishops systematically coverup and move the paedo priests to avoid bad press. Can’t have the church look bad.

Couple that with the belief the paedo priests holds the keys to heaven and hell for all the family members, the children and parents are easily manipulated into silence.

No need to “clean up my house” since one Baptist church holds no authority over another.

The problem, imo, is the power structure within the RCC (not biblical btw) lends itself to abuse, not just of children, but in all sorts of ways.

Peace to you

 

[Walter]

Of course child abuse is not “acceptable” (what an odd way to refer to such horror).

The difference, of course, is that Baptist churches are generally autonomous. Failure to report the abuse is a local church issue.

With the RCC, the abuse is covered up from the Pope down. The Cardinals and Bishops systematically coverup and move the paedo priests to avoid bad press. Can’t have the church look bad.

Couple that with the belief the paedo priests holds the keys to heaven and hell for all the family members, the children and parents are easily manipulated into silence.

No need to “clean up my house” since one Baptist church holds no authority over another.

The problem, imo, is the power structure within the RCC (not biblical btw) lends itself to abuse, not just of children, but in all sorts of ways.

Peace to you

You obviously didn't look at the links I provided. Plenty of cover up coordination with other IFB churches. Child abuse not clear to you? How about Baptist clergy/leadership raping children and causing them to regret trusting these in authority to bring them to Christ. Watch: Let Up Prey: A Ministry ofScandals (widespread IFB molestation and child torture). Jesus weeps while they circle the wagons and cover it up.

 

[Charlie24]

You obviously didn't look at the links I provided. Plenty of cover up coordination with other IFB churches. Child abuse not clear to you? How about Baptist clergy/leadership raping children and causing them to regret trusting these in authority to bring them to Christ. Watch: Let Up Prey: A Ministry ofScandals (widespread IFB molestation and child torture). Jesus weeps while they circle the wagons and cover it up.

There's a lot of sick people in this world, outside and inside the Church.

You really don't want to get into child abuse in the Church, do you, Walter?

 

[Walter]

There's a lot of sick people in this world, outside and inside the Church.

You really don't want to get into child abuse in the Church, do you, Walter?

Not the one bringing up 'paedo priests ' as if Baptist haven't had a rash of child diddling going on in their own churches for years and years. Apparently your not interested in the widespread child molestation and abuse in Baptist churches either.

StopBaptistPredators.org

 

[canadyjd]

You obviously didn't look at the links I provided. Plenty of cover up coordination with other IFB churches. Child abuse not clear to you? How about Baptist clergy/leadership raping children and causing them to regret trusting these in authority to bring them to Christ. Watch: Let Up Prey: A Ministry ofScandals (widespread IFB molestation and child torture). Jesus weeps while they circle the wagons and cover it up.

If only the RCC church spent time protecting their children from peado priests instead claiming some kind of sick moral equivalence with IBF churches.

This is why the RCC will never reform… they are too concerned about deflecting criticism than actually addressing the real problems within the church.

Peace to you

 

[Walter]

If only the RCC church spent time protecting their children from peado priests instead claiming some kind of sick moral equivalence with IBF churches.

This is why the RCC will never reform… they are too concerned about deflecting criticism than actually addressing the real problems within the church.

Peace to you

If only Baptist would admit they have a horrible peado problem they want to sweep under the rug.

The Southern Baptist Convention, America’s largest Protestant denomination, confronted its own sex-abuse crisis in the form of an investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News. The newspapers reported that hundreds of Southern Baptist clergy and staff had been accused of sexual misconduct over the past 20 years, including dozens who returned to church duties, while leaving more than 700 victims with little in the way of justice or apologies.

The IFB is a tiny, tiny fraction of Christianity in America but they're dealing with widespread occurrence of clergy and church leaders diddling children. One so big Hulu has done a series exposing the sickness within.

 

[Charlie24]

If only Baptist would admit they have a horrible peado problem they want to sweep under the rug.

The Southern Baptist Convention, America’s largest Protestant denomination, confronted its own sex-abuse crisis in the form of an investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News. The newspapers reported that hundreds of Southern Baptist clergy and staff had been accused of sexual misconduct over the past 20 years, including dozens who returned to church duties, while leaving more than 700 victims with little in the way of justice or apologies.

The IFB is a tiny, tiny fraction of Christianity in America but they're dealing with widespread occurrence of clergy and church leaders diddling children. One so big Hulu has done a series exposing the sickness within.

The Vatican has a few rugs too, you know!