Baptism - Sprinkled or Dunked?

[Cathode]

Ok, Cathode, I hope you're paying attention. It is not the Pope or the priests, or my pastor, or any scholar, that reveals the Word God.

It is the Spirit of God that reveals the Word of God to us. Notice Paul says, "But God has revealed them to US by His Spirit."

1 Cor. 2:10-11

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."

He, the Holy Spirit, is the only One qualified to reveal to us the Word of God.

And how do we receive it, Cathode?

The Holy Spirit teaches through Apostolically approved men given Authority, like Titus, Timothy, all the overseers and elders Paul and the Apostles appointed.

The Church Fathers were of that Apostolic lineage like Timothy and Titus, through the laying on of hands.

There is a special gift of The Holy Spirit imparted by the Apostles to their successors, not given to all. “ Some are Apostles. “

“For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline. 8 So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord. “

Timothy was told by Paul not to impart this gift wantonly through the laying on of hands.

So this why we follow the Apostolic successors like Timothy, Titus, Clement, Linus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus etc etc. These are the Apostolic successors gifted by The Holy Spirit, through the laying of hands from the Apostles. These are the teachers appoint by the Apostles to teach the true doctrine and understanding of the Scriptures.

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

“For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).

Protestantism rejected all the Apostolically appointed teachers, that were given the Apostolic gift of The Holy Spirit through the laying of hands.

That is why Bible alone Protestantism is scattered into thousands of conflicting sects based on human interpretations of scripture.

Traditions of men.

 

[Charlie24]

The Holy Spirit teaches through Apostolically approved men given Authority, like Titus, Timothy, all the overseers and elders Paul and the Apostles appointed.

The Church Fathers were of that Apostolic lineage like Timothy and Titus, through the laying on of hands.

There is a special gift of The Holy Spirit imparted by the Apostles to their successors, not given to all. “ Some are Apostles. “

“For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline. 8 So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord. “

Timothy was told by Paul not to impart this gift wantonly through the laying on of hands.

So this why we follow the Apostolic successors like Timothy, Titus, Clement, Linus, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus etc etc. These are the Apostolic successors gifted by The Holy Spirit, through the laying of hands from the Apostles. These are the teachers appoint by the Apostles to teach the true doctrine and understanding of the Scriptures.

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, ‘I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.’… Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry…For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties.” Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

“For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?” Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).

Protestantism rejected all the Apostolically appointed teachers, that were given the Apostolic gift of The Holy Spirit through the laying of hands.

That is why Bible alone Protestantism is scattered into thousands of conflicting sects based on human interpretations of scripture.

Traditions of men.

OK, Cathode that's fine, my friend! You follow the path the Lord has laid out for you, and I'll follow the one He laid out for me.

 

[Cathode]

This is the very reason God gave this to us from Solomon,

Prov. 3:5-6

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."

The entire thing with God is this one fact, do you trust the Lord to the point of risking everything on His promises?

Protestantism does trust its own understanding, each man interprets his own doctrines from scripture.
No doctrine is settled in Bible alone Protestantism.

Each man interprets what seems right in his own eyes, then credits The Holy Spirit for it, no matter how conflicting it is with every other Bible alone human tradition.

Protestantism is subjective interpretation of Scripture, with every wind of doctrine and interpretation of scripture.

Catholicism is the ancient, singular and objective interpretation of Scripture handed down from the Apostles by their successors.

 

[JesusFan]

Protestantism does trust its own understanding, each man interprets his own doctrines from scripture.
No doctrine is settled in Bible alone Protestantism.

Each man interprets what seems right in his own eyes, then credits The Holy Spirit for it, no matter how conflicting it is with every other Bible alone human tradition.

Protestantism is subjective interpretation of Scripture, with every wind of doctrine and interpretation of scripture.

Catholicism is the ancient, singular and objective interpretation of Scripture handed down from the Apostles by their successors.

What is it then that Rome has so many heresies and errors in her theology and traditions?

 

[Charlie24]

Protestantism does trust its own understanding, each man interprets his own doctrines from scripture.
No doctrine is settled in Bible alone Protestantism.

Each man interprets what seems right in his own eyes, then credits The Holy Spirit for it, no matter how conflicting it is with every other Bible alone human tradition.

Protestantism is subjective interpretation of Scripture, with every wind of doctrine and interpretation of scripture.

Catholicism is the ancient, singular and objective interpretation of Scripture handed down from the Apostles by their successors.

OK, Cathode, thanks!

 

[Cathode]

OK, Cathode that's fine, my friend! You follow the path the Lord has laid out for you, and I'll follow the one He laid out for me.

I think the issue is that you may not realise just how bad Bible alone Protestantism looks to an outsider. I mean it’s really bad. It might seem normal to people raised in it I suppose. But far out man.

I’ve seen Baptist pastors condemning each other, let alone all the legion of other Bible alone denominations out there with conflicting interpretations of scripture. All of them saying they are guided by The Holy Spirit, it’s chaos.

All of them have made the fundamental error of not understanding how The Holy Spirit operates.

If Bible alone Protestantism was true, and Luther was inspired by God, and The Holy Spirit does operate by guiding each man’s textual criticism of scripture, then all Bible alone Protestantism would be Lutheran.

It would be proven beyond all doubt, if every man who read the Bible in good faith guided by The Holy Spirit arrived at the same exact interpretation and doctrines.
If The Holy Spirit operated like that, everyone would have the same interpretation and doctrines despite human weaknesses.

That’s not what’s happening, it’s a madness of conflicting and subjective interpretations and doctrines only after 500 years.

A Catholic looks back at all the ancient Fathers a thousand and more years before Protestantism and we are in complete agreement on Scriptures interpretation and doctrine with those Fathers.

 

[Charlie24]

I think the issue is that you may not realise just how bad Bible alone Protestantism looks to an outsider. I mean it’s really bad. It might seem normal to people raised in it I suppose. But far out man.

I’ve seen Baptist pastors condemning each other, let alone all the legion of other Bible alone denominations out there with conflicting interpretations of scripture. All of them saying they are guided by The Holy Spirit, it’s chaos.

All of them have made the fundamental error of not understanding how The Holy Spirit operates.

If Bible alone Protestantism was true, and Luther was inspired by God, and The Holy Spirit does operate by guiding each man’s textual criticism of scripture, then all Bible alone Protestantism would be Lutheran.

It would be proven beyond all doubt, if every man who read the Bible in good faith guided by The Holy Spirit arrived at the same exact interpretation and doctrines.
If The Holy Spirit operated like that, everyone would have the same interpretation and doctrines despite human weaknesses.

That’s not what’s happening, it’s a madness of conflicting and subjective interpretations and doctrines only after 500 years.

A Catholic looks back at all the ancient Fathers a thousand and more years before Protestantism and we are in complete agreement on Scriptures interpretation and doctrine with those Fathers.

Yes, we can be a rowdy bunch when it comes the interpretation of the Scripture.

I understand the tradition you hold so close. We just don't agree with that tradition.

We have more than enough reason from Scripture to reject it.

So here we are at an impasse, but we can still get along if we try.

Not trying to incite the situation, but what I reject the most is the salvation of works in Catholicism.

To imagine the RCC will say that in order to remain saved a person must be a member of their Church.

Now Cathode, you know that's not in Scripture and you know in your heart that is a salvation of works.

And the list goes on, I'm sure you've presented with that list many times on these boards.

So that's where we're at, and there's nothing we can do but try to get along the best we can.

 

[Cathode]

OK, Cathode, thanks!

No worries mate.

I’d be right there with you if Bible alone Protestantism was monolithic.

It would be a powerful case if Protestantism was entirely Lutheran, Luther’s case for Bible alone would be completely proven, everyone would arrive at Luther’s inspired interpretation of Scripture just by reading the Bible and relying on The Holy Spirit.

 

[Cathode]

Yes, we can be a rowdy bunch when it comes the interpretation of the Scripture.

I understand the tradition you hold so close. We just don't agree with that tradition.

We have more than enough reason from Scripture to reject it.

So here we are at an impasse, but we can still get along if we try.

Well, everyone has a tradition, for Catholics we look at whether a tradition is ancient and Apostolic, or whether it is man founded tradition, like Lutheranism, Calvinism we lump into that category amongst many others.

Not trying to incite the situation, but what I reject the most is the salvation of works in Catholicism.

To imagine the RCC will say that in order to remain saved a person must be a member of their Church.

Now Cathode, you know that's not in Scripture and you know in your heart that is a salvation of works.

And the list goes on, I'm sure you've presented with that list many times on these boards.

So that's where we're at, and there's nothing we can do but try to get along the best we can.

If you would like to convince a Catholic that he is following works based salvation doctrines, it pays to study what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

It’s important to be very accurate at presenting the actual belief in question. Otherwise you are creating a straw man to beat the stuffing out of.

I actually practice presenting the opponent belief as accurately as possible, I need to understand it perfectly before I make any critique of it. Otherwise I’m beating up that straw man myself, and that’s like cheating at chess. It does nothing for us as men, but in fact destroys our intellectual honesty and integrity.

The better we understand a thing, the clearer Truth is to us, and we all know what truth does.

We consider all baptised as members of the Catholic Church BTW.

 

[Charlie24]

Well, everyone has a tradition, for Catholics we look at whether a tradition is ancient and Apostolic, or whether it is man founded tradition, like Lutheranism, Calvinism we lump into that category amongst many others.



If you would like to convince a Catholic that he is following works based salvation doctrines, it pays to study what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

It’s important to be very accurate at presenting the actual belief in question. Otherwise you are creating a straw man to beat the stuffing out of.

I actually practice presenting the opponent belief as accurately as possible, I need to understand it perfectly before I make any critique of it. Otherwise I’m beating up that straw man myself, and that’s like cheating at chess. It does nothing for us as men, but in fact destroys our intellectual honesty and integrity.

The better we understand a thing, the clearer Truth is to us, and we all know what truth does.

We consider all baptised as members of the Catholic Church BTW.

What about "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" no salvation outside the Church?

I've read many definitions for this and they all seem to vary. The truth is, it means what it says, no salvation outside the RCC.

This was practiced for centuries, now that say there is salvation outside the Church, but one must be a member to remain saved.

Everyone you speak to has a different twist on this.

 

[Cathode]

What about "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" no salvation outside the Church?

I've read many definitions for this and they all seem to vary. The truth is, it means what it says, no salvation outside the RCC.

This was practiced for centuries, now that say there is salvation outside the Church, but one must be a member to remain saved.

Everyone you speak to has a different twist on this.

We have always believed that baptism is Regeneration and brings you into the Church, as the Christian initiation.

 

[Cathode]

The belief that there is no salvation outside the Church stems from our understanding of Jesus words that unless you are born again of water and Spirit, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Baptism being that born again moment.

So baptism brings a man into the Church.

 

[Charlie24]

We have always believed that baptism is Regeneration and brings you into the Church, as the Christian initiation.

Answer me this, do you believe as Paul said, we are saved by Grace not of works.

Now, is depending on another person to make your baptismal regeneration possible in a ceremony an act of works, added to grace?

Remember Paul also said, that if salvation is of grace it is no more of works.

I know that Catholics see water baptism as a commandment, and rightfully so, it is a commandment.

But, if you add this water baptism to faith for regeneration, it cancels out grace, as Paul plainly has shown us.

 

[Cathode]

Serious sin (Mortal )however ejects a person from the Church.

So although heretics have broken from the Church and are culpable.

The subsequent believers of the heresy are not treated the same, these are separated bretheran, but part of the Church by their baptism.

 

[Cathode]

Answer me this, do you believe as Paul said, we are saved by Grace not of works.

Now, is depending on another person to make your baptismal regeneration possible in a ceremony an act of works, added to grace?

Remember Paul also said, that if salvation is of grace it is no more of works.

I know that Catholics see water baptism as a commandment, and rightfully so, it is a commandment.

But, if you add this water baptism to faith for regeneration, it cancels out grace, as Paul plainly has shown us.

We see Baptism as a means of God’s Grace.

What happens at Baptism is spiritual, it’s something God does by Grace.

“In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ “.

A man can wash dirt from the body, but he can not wash dirt from his soul, this is done by The Holy Spirit entirely.

Baptism saves us, it clears our conscience which is the heart of our soul.

 

[Charlie24]

We see Baptism as a means of God’s Grace.

What happens at Baptism is spiritual, it’s something God does by Grace.

“In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ “.

A man can wash dirt from the body, but he can not wash dirt from his soul, this is done by The Holy Spirit entirely.

Baptism saves us, it clears our conscience which is the heart of our soul.

I guess our lesson yesterday took no effect.

The water is the symbol of the baptism that now saves us, remember the spiritual baptism we talked about in Col. 2?

See, we are not even in the same ballpark. There is no way I can help you understand, because we are so far apart.

God will not accept anything but faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation.

Anything added to faith for salvation by default is works. Faith/Grace is the opposite of works

 

[Cathode]

But, if you add this water baptism to faith for regeneration, it cancels out grace, as Paul plainly has shown us.

At Baptism, Faith is absolutely required.

Faith is the beginning of Eternal Life.

 

[Cathode]

I guess our lesson yesterday took no effect.

The water is the symbol of the baptism that now saves us, remember the spiritual baptism we talked about in Col. 2?

See, we are not even in the same ballpark. There is no way I can help you understand, because we are so far apart.

God will not accept anything but faith in the finished work of Christ for salvation.

Anything added to faith for salvation by default is works. Faith/Grace is the opposite of works

The water of the flood is symbolic, it doesn’t say Baptism is symbolic.

“In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also”

Do you believe baptism saves you?

Catholics have always believed Baptism saves as regeneration as all the ancient Church have constantly and unanimously believed and professed.

A man’s works can not save him you are right, no work a man does can cleanse his soul, it’s only by Grace.

It’s The Holy Spirit that does that at Baptism.

 

[Charlie24]

At Baptism, Faith is absolutely required.

Faith is the beginning of Eternal Life.

Yes, but that faith cannot be a mixed faith, as in seeing faith in the finished work of Christ PLUS water baptism together saving the soul.

That is a no-go for sure! You have to understand that what you're doing is a mixed faith with works added.

I know with your teaching that is difficult to see.

The correct way to be saved is this, faith only in the finished work of Christ for salvation, period!

Obeying the commandment of water baptism as the symbol of the baptism that actually saved us, the spiritual baptism that took place in the instant we believed.

This is a single faith only in the finished work of Christ for salvation, followed by water baptism as the symbol of the spiritual baptism that saved us.

Here's the principle we are dealing with from Paul.

Romans 11:6

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Can you see here that the faith in the finished work of Christ alone is rewarded with Grace from God to salvation.

This grace is no more of works in any fashion for your initial salvation.

Do you see that if works are involved, it is no more grace. In other words, the works cancel out the grace and you are not saved, God will not accept it.

I pray you can see this!

 

[Cathode]

Now, is depending on another person to make your baptismal regeneration possible in a ceremony an act of works, added to grace?

Right, I think I understand you.

You saying that because the Baptism ceremony itself is a human “ work “ that it negates Grace.
Is that right?