Baptism--Why?

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by ascund:
Justification is by faith alone.

Originally posted by bmerr:
You speak in direct conflict with James 2:24.

Here again, after several posts showing the vital contextual clues, you ignore context.

Actually, you ignore both contexts of this verse.

The overarching context is James writing to believers. He urges them to provide works worthy of their standing in Christ. It is an error to make spiritual growth of faith + obedience sanctification a requirement of justification. We expect the baby to talk + walk sometime after birth. We don’t make the baby talk + walk as a requirement for birth.

The immediate context is James 2:23. Abraham was saved by faith (Gen. 15:6) twenty years before he offered up Isaac (Gen. 22; James 2:24). Romans 4 uses Abraham as an example of justification by faith (4:2-3,13) apart from any obedience and sacrament (4:4-12). The promise is voided by faith + obedience (4:14). Can God be any clearer? In 4:16, justification is by grace through faith [fn4]. Justification was IMPUTED to Abraham (4:22) by passive faith; EVENT – not process.

James 2:23 with 24 shows the total picture. Justification by passive faith is the new birth; sanctification by active faith is spiritual growth. Believers, therefore, are righteous by works, just because they are righteous without any merit of, or without any respect to works, seeing that the righteousness of works depends on the righteousness of faith. These two must not be confused. Error forces the sanctification part of Abraham’s life to be a requirement for justification oblivious that Abraham was already justified. It is wrong to endorse a system that makes the baby prove itself before birth. Proof of life happens AFTER birth.

This is your error. No baby can ever prove itself worthy of birth. No human can ever be self-righteous - - - even with the indwelling Spirit's assistance.


“Faith without works is dead” can only be used as a means for JUSTIFIED BELIEVERS to verify their justification before others. Faith and works cannot mix to produce or maintain justification before God (Rom. 4:14, 11:6; 1 Cor 1:17c). All faith + obedience verses fit into this harmony.

One must use ALL of God's Word - not just the parts that are conducive to one's denominational creeds.
Lloyd

 

[Michael52]

Originally posted by bmerr:
My point is that works of obedience are a neccessary part of saving faith. Not works of the law, not works of merit. Obedience. How else would one demonstrate their submission to God's will, but by obedience to His commands?

Obedience adds nothing to the work of Christ. It simply is the manifestation of one's faith in Christ's work. Without it, faith is dead.

bmerr

My point is that works of obedience are not a necessary part of saving faith. It does not matter how we classify a "work", whether law, works of merit, obedience, etc. They are all physical or mental acts and activities that can also be performed by an unbeliever. If an unbeliever is “obedient” to the laws of God, is he saved? No! Does the meritorious act of an unbeliever justify him in the sight of God? No!

If both a believer and an unbeliever perform the identical meritorious act, which is justified by the act? Neither!

What is the difference that has caused one to be saved and the other condemned, very simply, one believes and is justified, the other does not believe and is condemned!

All disobedience is sin. If we are judged on our obedience, we are all doomed for hell, because there was only One who obeyed perfectly and merited salvation by works, Jesus Christ. That is why our only hope is to be dressed in His righteousness.

Obviously, God wants us to be obedient. Perfect obedience is not possible for us, but faith is. Saving faith, which comes first, allows and compels us attempt the things God desires us to do. Not to obtain salvation, but to please the One who saved us. It is God and God alone who gives us the ability and desire do what pleases Him. This is stated plainly in the passage from Eph., which we sometimes leave out.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Your answer to the hypothetical situation where someone comes to saving faith and then is prevented by circumstance beyond his control from receiving water baptism brings up a pivotal question. If we come to saving faith in Jesus Christ, doesn’t the Bible tell us that will give us the strength and ability to do what he asks us to do? Will he ask of us something that is humanly impossible for us to do? Certainly we all (me, anyway) are called to do things, which are in our power to do; yet we fail for various reasons (chiefly, sin) to accomplish them. Isn’t this the reason we need a Savior?

You ask, “how does God choose who He will saved – isn’t there something we have to do to be saved?” Yes, the Bible says we have to believe. Period. When we believe, Jesus will help us carry our burdens and enable us to accomplish His will. His will for us is the only law and/or work with which we need concern ourselves. His will, will be done in us, whether we like it or not!

I pray He gives all of us the grace to "like it."

Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

One must use ALL of God's Word - not just the parts that are conducive to one's denominational creeds.
Lloyd

Pot...kettle....

A one-time, once-for-all imputed forensic justification is the doctrinal novelty and is not the true biblical teaching, but don't let that stop you from claiming otherwise.

 

[Michael52]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
A one-time, once-for-all imputed forensic justification is the doctrinal novelty and is not the true biblical teaching, but don't let that stop you from claiming otherwise.

To borrow a phrase, "If it was good 'nough fer Paul..."

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
A one-time, once-for-all imputed forensic justification is the doctrinal novelty and is not the true biblical teaching, but don't let that stop you from claiming otherwise.

All you have to do is look up words like:

"impute" Psa 32:2, Rom 4 (6 times), Rom 5:13 and 2 Cor 5:19.

Where are the words "infuse" or "impart?" Gotcha!

Try the word "pardon." It shows up 20 times. This is a court room word. By the way, the word "forensic" is a synonym for the court room.

You haven't read your Bible if you can't see forensic justification anywhere. Sad!

Lloyd

 

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by bmerr:
hillclimber,

bmerr here. I hadn't thought of that. Something else for the "evidence" list.

Do you ever get near Clarksville, TN in your travels, or are you local?

In Christ,

bmerr

West coast only but with a few sorties into Pheonix and Las Vegas. I did actually fly into Nashville for a convention several years ago.

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by Michael52:
It does not matter how we classify a "work", whether law, works of merit, obedience, etc. They are all physical or mental acts and activities that can also be performed by an unbeliever.

Michael52,

bmerr here. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I don't know if it's somewhere good or not, but we're getting somewhere!

Does the New Testament command, either implicitly or explicitly, that we must believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God if we would avoid damnation? Certainly it does. (I'm going to try and keep this short, so no verse list for this point.)

Can an unbeliever hear God's word? Happens all the time.

Can an unbeliever believe? Not without becoming a believer.

Can an unbeliever repent? Yes, but not toward God.

Can an unbeliever confess Christ as the Son of God? Not without lying.

Can an unbeliever be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins? No, since belief and repentance are prerequisite to baptism.

If an unbeliever is “obedient” to the laws of God, is he saved? No!

Michael, were you not an unbeliever at one time? I was. Did you not hear the gospel and believe it? I did. In believing the gospel, did I not obey the law of God?

If an unbeliever cannot be saved by turning to God in faithful obedience, how can he be saved at all? You're not going "Calvin" on me, are you?

Does the meritorious act of an unbeliever justify him in the sight of God? No!

No, it does not. No amount of good works can earn salvation.

If both a believer and an unbeliever perform the identical meritorious act, which is justified by the act? Neither!

Correct. The saint is no more able to "earn" God's favor than the sinner.

What is the difference that has caused one to be saved and the other condemned, very simply, one believes and is justified, the other does not believe and is condemned!

And how is the belief of the one manifested? In obedience! How about the other's unbelief? In continued disobedience.

All disobedience is sin. If we are judged on our obedience, we are all doomed for hell, because there was only One who obeyed perfectly and merited salvation by works, Jesus Christ. That is why our only hope is to be dressed in His righteousness.

Where do you get the idea that I'm saying we earn our salvation? I've stated as plainly as I know how that our obedience to Christ does not earn us salvation. To be dressed in the righteousness of God is to have had the kind of faith that obeyed His commands.

Obviously, God wants us to be obedient. Perfect obedience is not possible for us, but faith is.

Faithfulness is what is required of man by God (1 Cor 4:2). Can one be a faithful spouse? Certainly one can. Does their doing so mean that they were perfect? Obviously not.

Saving faith, which comes first, allows and compels us attempt the things God desires us to do. Not to obtain salvation, but to please the One who saved us.

That's what I've been getting at: What is "saving faith", if it is not obedient?

It is God and God alone who gives us the ability and desire do what pleases Him. This is stated plainly in the passage from Eph., which we sometimes leave out.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Why does God not give all men the "ability and desire do what pleases Him", then? Is God a respecter of persons? Please tell me you're not going "Calvin" on me!

Your answer to the hypothetical situation where someone comes to saving faith and then is prevented by circumstance beyond his control from receiving water baptism brings up a pivotal question. If we come to saving faith in Jesus Christ, doesn’t the Bible tell us that will give us the strength and ability to do what he asks us to do?

You seem to be arguing from the point that is being discussed. We are discussing (last I checked anyway), the nature of "saving faith". The person in your illustration aparently has "saving faith", yet we are still discussing what "saving faith" is.

That's what I keep going back to: what is the "saving faith" of the "faith only" doctrine? Is it intgellectual assent of the facts of Jesus, and our need for redemption, or faith without works, which the Bible says is dead, or is it a faith in Christ and an acknowledgement of our need for redemption that demonstrates itself in obeying God?

If it's the former, then we are saved by a dead faith, and the baptism verses all have to be explained away.

If it's the latter, then it lines up neatly with everything else the Bible says.

Will he ask of us something that is humanly impossible for us to do? Certainly we all (me, anyway) are called to do things, which are in our power to do; yet we fail for various reasons (chiefly, sin) to accomplish them. Isn’t this the reason we need a Savior?

There seems to be two extremes in your thinking. It's as if God asks nothing of man, or else God asks EVERYTHING of man. Either no obedience, or absolute perfection.

God demands FAITHFULNESS. Not perfection, for only Jesus achieved that. Not no obedience, for then everyone would be saved. Just faithfulness.

His will, will be done in us, whether we like it or not!

That sounds pretty fatalistic. I'm sure you didn't mean it to.

I pray He gives all of us the grace to "like it."

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3)

Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mt 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mt 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

God gives us a choice. We're not forced in any direction.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[leesw]

Baptism. Why? Because God's Word says to!

Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:4, Mark 16:16, 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, and others.

A good study about objections to baptism is at: http://www.bible.ca/baptism-objections-refuted.htm

 

[ascund]

Greetings

bmerr asks, "And how is the belief of the one manifested? In obedience!"

Well - yes. But this is not justification alone. It is justification plus sanctification together in the total life picture of salvation. This is the exact same presentation as given in Mark 16:16. Because you cannot keep justification distinct from sanctification, you wrongly make works (acts) of obedience salvific.

Justification is by faith - alone. Sanctification is by faithful obedience.

You are maneuvering to define justification in terms of sanctification - again. This is big error.
Lloyd

 

[webdog]

Curious...if baptism were required to "complete" salvation, why would someone who is not saved want to be baptized? In other words, I accept Christ, I want to be baptized. If salvation was not through faith alone, my "faith" would not be genuine and I would have no desire to be baptized. To use a previous analogy, if the person who is saved walks across the road to the church, he has a desire to be baptized because he is a "new creature". If he wasn't saved as bmerr would have us to believe, why then would he want to be baptized? Sorry if this is confusing, I know what I'm trying to say if nobody else does.

 

[Michael52]

bmerr

It seems you are saying:

saving faith = obedience
and
obedience = saving faith

IMO this is not a true equivalence. All obedience is a work and any unbeliever can perform the same works a believer can perform (“…did we not prophesy? …did we not cast out demons?…).

Again, if the criterion for salvation is obedience, then what advantage has the believer? NONE! (bmerr, I’m not going “Calvinistic” on you, just Biblical ) The Bible says, “without faith, it is impossible to please Him.”

Jn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So what is the criterion? --- FAITH (belief), plus NOTHING!

We must first and above all, believe. If we believe, and are saved, then the Holy Spirit will work in us so that our works (obedience) will be pleasing to God. I think the Bible is plain that if there is no “fruit”, the Holy Spirit is not indwelling us and we are not saved. If we are saved and there is no “fruit”, then we have been disobedient, where it counts, and will be chastened by God. We are responsible in our sanctification, as ascund has pointed out.

Salvation is a gift that we can’t earn. Until we are saved by grace, through faith there is nothing we can do to merit the favor of God. After we are saved, God’s grace enables us to be obedient and do the things that please him.

I think that if a person confuses saving faith and obedience, then the above discourse does sound rather confusing. I personally reconcile it by asking myself the question, “What ‘good’ thing have I ever done that God did not first give me the ability and desire to do? What ‘good’ thing can I do that would put God in my debt, so that he is compelled to act in response? The answer is - NOTHING! (see Job)

 

[Michael52]

webdog

I know what ya mean!

Though, I imagine there are people, who are unbelievers, that confuse water baptism with salvation. They may believe that the baptismal ceremony will merit for them God's grace and "punch their ticket" to heaven.

 

[Frank]

Michael:
I have not read one post advocating that one is saved by baptism alone. I do not believe anyone has promulgated this doctrine. I have not read one post that advocates salvation by meritorious works.
The bible does teach that baptism is a PART of an obedient active faith in the redemptive work of Christ that accesses God's grace that saves. Romans 5:1,2;6:3-5,17,18 Eph. 2:8,9, Eph. 1:7, Rev. 1:5,Col. 1:14; 2:12, John 8:24,Luke 13:3, Acts 17:30, Mat. 10:32,Mark 16:16.

In every dispensation of time an obedient active faith saves accessed God's grace that saves. Always has. Always will. Hebrews 11:30, Joshua 6.

 

[ascund]

Greetings Frank & others

Your post is pretty good. I'd like to see you tighten up your terminology.

Originally posted by Frank:
In every dispensation of time an obedient active faith saves accessed God's grace that saves./QUOTE]

This otherwise good posting fails to clearly identify with justification. In fact, it is so vague that it could be used by Catholics and CoCers equally well.

The evangelical way of saying this would be that obedient active faith of sanctification accesses God's grace AFTER justification.

Lloyd

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:

The bible does teach that baptism is a PART of an obedient active faith in the redemptive work of Christ that accesses God's grace that saves.

The Bible teaches no such thing.
To equate baptism to faith is absurd. Look up the words in a dictionary. They are different for a reason. Baptism is not faith, nor even a part of it. Baptism is a work. It is performed by Hindus, Mormons, COC, and many others. It does not require faith. It requires action. It is a work.

Therefore you have a works-salvation by making it a part of your "faith." You believe then, that salvation is by works and not by grace. You have denied the Word of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
DHK

 

[Frank]

Ascund:
The scriptures speak for themselves. They do not need to be cleaned up. However, to set the record right, I am a christian as per Acts 11:26. There is no such thing as a Cocer. You should follow your own advice and cleanup your terminology.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:
Ascund:
The scriptures speak for themselves. They do not need to be cleaned up. However, to set the record right, I am a christian as per Acts 11:26. There is no such thing as a Cocer. You should follow your own advice and cleanup your terminology.

Why the unnecessary rebuke Frank?
The "COCer" terminology used by Ascund is right in your own profile used by yourself. If you define yourself as COC, are you not being hypocritical to deny others to call you the same? Or are you trying to hide under a facade of "Christianity" without the shame of being a COC?
DHK

 

[Frank]

DHK:
Quote/
The Bible teaches no such thing.
To equate baptism to faith is absurd. Look up the words in a dictionary. They are different for a reason. Baptism is not faith, nor even a part of it. Baptism is a work. It is performed by Hindus, Mormons, COC, and many others. It does not require faith. It requires action. It is a work.

Therefore you have a works-salvation by making it a part of your "faith." You believe then, that salvation is by works and not by grace. You have denied the Word of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
DHK
Baptism is an act of faith. Col. 2:12. Buried with him in baptism wherein we are also risen with him by faith in the operation of God who raised him from the dead. You need more than a dictionary.
Furthermore, there are different types of work in the bible.Gal. 3:11, Titus 3:5. A faith that is obedient an active always saves. Always has, always will. No exceptions. Every example of conversion in the bible required an obedient active faith, no exception.Acts 2;38, 8:12-14,35-40; 10:48:11:1-5, 16:12-16,30-33; 18:8; 19:1-5; 22:16.Every example of salvation in every dispensation of time required an obedient active faith. Always has, always will. No exceptions. The grace that saves is always accessed by an obedient active faith. Roms. 5:1,2;6:3-5,17,18,Acts 22;16.

Our inheritance is dependent upon conditions stipulated in the will of Christ. No exceptions. Rev. 2:10, I Peter 1:1-5. No exceptions.

Abraham looked for a city that hath foundations whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews 11:10 cf. 11. His obedient active faith got him into the kingdom of heaven. Mat. 8:11,12. Jesus said And I say unto you that many shall come from the east and west and shall sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

The reception of a gift( grace) does not preclude CONDITIONS. Joshua 6, the whole chapter. cf. Hebrews 11:30. God told Joshua in verse two he had given into thine hand Jericho. However, until Joshua did all God asked the walls of Jericho and the city stood firm. Noah was saved by grace because he did all that God commanded him so did he, Gen. 6:7,22. This is the type grace and faith that saves. No exceptions.

Baptism is one conditon of an obedient active faith that saves. The bible says in Gal. 3:26, for ye are all the children of God by( how?) by faith (where?)in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have ( when?) been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Always has, always will be.

You can search the bible today, tomorrow, and for a thousand years with the mind of Einstein and never find someone being saved by God without an obedient active faith, not one time.

 

[DHK]

A work is a work is a work. You can put as many adjectives aa you want before "work" but it wont change the definition any. We are not saved by works. There are no such things as "meritorious works." No work is meritorious.
For by grace are ye save through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, Not of works. You either believe that statement or you don't.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

There is no such thing as meritorious works. If works (the work of baptism) is included in salvation, then salvation is not of grace, and you have a works-based salvation, which according to this verse you have.
DHK

 

[Frank]

DHK:
I never have used the term cocer in reference with my identification with Christ. I am a member of the church ( the saved) of Christ. Acts 2:47; 11:26.

Please provide any post of mine where I have made reference to myself or my brethren as cocer's.

Strange, I call you a baptist because that what you claim to be. Are you offended by being called a baptist. If so, I will not call you one. It is shameful on your part not to show the same courtesy to others.