Baptism?

[Silverhair]

Possibly here:

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul.
15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us. Acts 16

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately.
34 And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God. Acts 16

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 1 Cor 1

Only if you think babies can confess faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Silverhair]

The relevance of Acts 2:38 and 1 Peter 3:21 to salvation is so very clear that for the first 1,500 years of the church there was no dispute as to their proper interpretation. For the very large majority of Christian denominations that relevance is still very clear. By comparison, the mode of baptism and the meaning of the Greek word βαπτίζω are insignificant.

So faith is not required just that you be baptized?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Where? Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:9-10, Acts 8:36-39, John 3:23, Romans 6: 3-4
I've never heard of anyone who died from getting baptized by full emersion, nor have I ever heard of anyone getting sick from being baptized by full emersion.

The water baptism recorded in Matthew 3:16 and Mark 1:9-10 took place in the Jordan River. For the water baptism recorded in Acts 8:36-39, please see the technical but evangelical 4,608-page commentary on Acts by Craig S. Keener published in 2015. As for John 3:23, the place name “Aenon” is from the Aramaic plural of the word for spring. Very much time and effort has been spent in an attempt to learn the precise location of this water baptism. For a summary of this research, please see please see the scholarly but readable 1,376-page commentary on John’s gospel by Raymond E. Brown published by Yale University in 1970. In Romans 6:3-4, Paul makes no mention of the location of any baptism.

 

[Silverhair]

I wrote,

“By comparison, the mode of baptism and the meaning of the Greek word βαπτίζω are insignificant.”

Where in the Bible do you find anyone being submerged in a baptismal tank or in any other body of standing water? The practice of pouring or sprinkling has saved millions of lives—especially in places where standing water is very likely to be to be hygienically dangerous and in cold climates.

The bible say we are saved by grace through faith. You seem to think it should read saved by grace through baptism.

One should be baptized as soon as possible but it is not necessary for your salvation.

 

[Silverhair]

The water baptism recorded in Matthew 3:16 and Mark 1:9-10 took place in the Jordan River. For the water baptism recorded in Acts 8:36-39, please see the technical but evangelical 4,608-page commentary on Acts by Craig S. Keener published in 2015. As for John 3:23, the place name “Aenon” is from the Aramaic plural of the word for spring. Very much time and effort has been spent in an attempt to learn the precise location of this water baptism. For a summary of this research, please see please see the scholarly but readable 1,376-page commentary on John’s gospel by Raymond E. Brown published by Yale University in 1970. In Romans 6:3-4, Paul makes no mention of the location of any baptism.

All your scholarly articles still do not alter the meaning of the word.

baptism βάπτισμα, baptisma, G908

immersion, submersion

of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in christ, having been born again by the holy spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of christ and the church.

 

[David Lamb]

Possibly here? I think not. Do any of these passages mention a baby or an infant? The age of any of the household is not mentioned. One cannot say that babies were included, and I don't believe any were.

I agree. Particularly with regard to the jailer's household, we are told:

NKJV (Act 16:32) Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
(Act 16:33) And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.
(Act 16:34) Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

Would they "speak the word of God" to little babies? More importantly, verse 34 tells us that the jailer and all his household had believed. Little babies can't believe.

 

[Silverhair]

I wrote,

“By comparison, the mode of baptism and the meaning of the Greek word βαπτίζω are insignificant.”

The practice of pouring or sprinkling has saved millions of lives—

Baptism has saved no one.

We find two verses that contain baptism and save: Mar_16:16 & 1Pe_3:21. Neither of these support your view that "pouring or sprinkling has saved millions of lives".

There is one condition of salvation FAITH. In Mar_16:16 it is stated once from the positive believe = saved and once from the negative dis-believe = condemned.

We see this again in 1Pe_3:20-21. "In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water." "And this water symbolizes the baptism that now saves you also ...through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" It is our trust /FAITH in the risen Christ that saves.

The ark is a picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. The flood of water depicts the judgment of God. The ark was the only way of salvation. When the flood came, only those who were inside were saved; all those on the outside perished. So Christ is the only way of salvation; those who are in Christ through faith are saved. Those on the outside are lost.
The water was not the means of salvation, the ark was the place of refuge. So Christ bore the wrath of God's judgment against our sins. For those who are in Him there is no judgment (Joh_5:24) from BBC

 

[Craigbythesea]

All your scholarly articles still do not alter the meaning of the word.

baptism βάπτισμα, baptisma, G908

immersion, submersion

of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in christ, having been born again by the holy spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of christ and the church.

This post is ridiculously irresponsible because the definitions given in it are the personal opinions of Dr. James Strong who wrote the definitions 20 years before the first useful Greek lexicon (Erwin Preuschen’s Griechisch-Deutsches Taschenwörterbuch Zum Neuen Testament) was published in 1910. Upon Preuschen’s death in 1920, the revision of his lexicon was entrusted to Walter Bauer and this revision was published in 1928 as the second edition. In 1930, James Hope Mouton and George Milligan independently published The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament. A thoroughly revised edition of Preuschen’s lexicon was published in 1937 with only Bauer’s name on the title page. Bauer realized, however, that his lexicon, although a huge improvement over Thayer’s in terms of accuracy and completeness, needed to be thoroughly revised and updated and therefore undertook a thorough search of all Greek literature down to the Byzantine times to determine more precisely the meaning of the words found in the New Testament. This resulted in the publication of the monumental work, Griechisch-Deutsches Wörterbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur in 1949-1952. An English translation (by William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich) of this lexicon was published by the University of Chicago in 1957 with the title, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature and became widely known as the “Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich Lexicon.” A second edition was published by the University of Chicago in 1979. A thorough revision by Frederick William Danker was published by the University of Chicago in 2000. It is very commonly referred to simply as the “BDAG” and this name appears on the title page in parenthesis below the full title.

The BDAG is the standard Greek-English lexicon used in our Baptist colleges, seminaries, and universities—as well as the colleges, seminaries, and universities belonging to all of the mainline Christian Denominations. It is also used by the finest biblical scholars in the Roman Catholic Church. There is no lexicon that even begins to compare with it—and in my opinion, the use of it is essential for the serious and accurate study of the New Testament. Perhaps needless to say, it dramatically exposes Strong's definitions for what they really are.

The citing and analysis of the uses of the words βάπτισμα and βάπτισμα in the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature are found on pages 164-165 in the BDAG.

 

[Silverhair]

This post is ridiculously irresponsible because the definitions given in it are the personal opinions of Dr. James Strong who wrote the definitions 20 years before the first useful Greek lexicon (Erwin Preuschen’s Griechisch-Deutsches Taschenwörterbuch Zum Neuen Testament) was published in 1910. Upon Preuschen’s death in 1920, the revision of his lexicon was entrusted to Walter Bauer and this revision was published in 1928 as the second edition. In 1930, James Hope Mouton and George Milligan independently published The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament. A thoroughly revised edition of Preuschen’s lexicon was published in 1937 with only Bauer’s name on the title page. Bauer realized, however, that his lexicon, although a huge improvement over Thayer’s in terms of accuracy and completeness, needed to be thoroughly revised and updated and therefore undertook a thorough search of all Greek literature down to the Byzantine times to determine more precisely the meaning of the words found in the New Testament. This resulted in the publication of the monumental work, Griechisch-Deutsches Wörterbuch zu den Schriften des Neuen Testaments und der übrigen urchristlichen Literatur in 1949-1952. An English translation (by William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich) of this lexicon was published by the University of Chicago in 1957 with the title, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature and became widely known as the “Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich Lexicon.” A second edition was published by the University of Chicago in 1979. A thorough revision by Frederick William Danker was published by the University of Chicago in 2000. It is very commonly referred to simply as the “BDAG” and this name appears on the title page in parenthesis below the full title.

The BDAG is the standard Greek-English lexicon used in our Baptist colleges, seminaries, and universities—as well as the colleges, seminaries, and universities belonging to all of the mainline Christian Denominations. It is also used by the finest biblical scholars in the Roman Catholic Church. There is no lexicon that even begins to compare with it—and in my opinion, the use of it is essential for the serious and accurate study of the New Testament. Perhaps needless to say, it dramatically exposes Strong's definitions for what they really are.

The citing and analysis of the uses of the words βάπτισμα and βάπτισμα in the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature are found on pages 164-165 in the BDAG.

In all that I did not see one time that they disagreed with the definitions that Strong gave.

So as I see it you really have nothing to support your personal view that the practice of pouring or sprinkling has saved millions of lives.

Which one of those you cited gave a definition of pouring or sprinkling for G907 - G911?

The Complete Word Study Dictionary Spiros Zodhiates

G907
βαπτίζω
baptízō; fut. baptísō, from báptō (G911), to dip. Immerse, submerge for a religious purpose, to overwhelm, saturate, baptize (Joh_1:25).

G908
βάπτισμα
báptisma; gen. baptísmatos, neut. noun from báptō (G911), to dip. Baptism.
The suffix -ma indicates the result of the act of dipping. In contrast, báptisis with the suffix -is indicates the act of baptism, while baptismós (G909) with the suffix -os indicates the completed act.

G909
βαπτισμός
baptismós; gen. baptismoú, masc. noun from baptízō (G907), to baptize. Ceremonial washing. In Heb_9:10 the word translated "divers [various] washings" is not baptísmata, pl. of báptisma, baptism, but the pl. of baptismós, i.e., baptismoí, washings, as constituents of the rites of OT law. Baptismós denotes the act as a fact, and báptisma the result of the act; hence the former word is suitable as a designation of the institution (Mar_7:4, Mar_7:8; Heb_6:2; Lev_11:32; also 11-15; Num. 19).

G910
βαπτιστής
baptistḗs; gen. baptistoú, masc. noun from baptízō (G907), to baptize. A baptizer or baptist, referring to John the Baptist (Mat_3:1; Mat_11:11-12; Mat_14:2, Mat_14:8; Mat_16:14; Mat_17:13; Mar_6:24-25; Mar_8:28; Luk_7:20, Luk_7:28, Luk_7:33; Luk_9:19).

G911
βάπτω
báptō; fut. bápsō. To immerse, dip, trans. (Luk_16:24 of the thing touched; Joh_13:26). To dye by dipping (Rev_19:13, to tinge, dye).

 

[Silverhair]

@Craigbythesea you can hold to your view that the practice of pouring or sprinkling has saved millions of lives but the bible does not support your view.

Here is another Greek scholar that does not support your view.

William D. Mounce Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
77x: pr. to dip, immerse; to cleanse or purify by washing; to administer the rite of baptism, to baptize;

G908
βάπτισμα
baptisma
19x: pr. immersion; baptism, ordinance of baptism,

G909
βαπτισμός
baptismos
4x: pr. an act of dipping or immersion: a baptism

G910
βαπτιστής
baptistēs
12x: one who baptizes, a baptist

G911
βάπτω
baptō
4x: to dip,

I have to ask, where did you come across the idea that the practice of pouring or sprinkling has saved millions of lives?

 

[Craigbythesea]

@Craigbythesea you can hold to your view that the practice of pouring or sprinkling has saved millions of lives but the bible does not support your view.

Here is another Greek scholar that does not support your view.

William D. Mounce Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary

G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
77x: pr. to dip, immerse; to cleanse or purify by washing; to administer the rite of baptism, to baptize;

G908
βάπτισμα
baptisma
19x: pr. immersion; baptism, ordinance of baptism,

G909
βαπτισμός
baptismos
4x: pr. an act of dipping or immersion: a baptism

G910
βαπτιστής
baptistēs
12x: one who baptizes, a baptist

G911
βάπτω
baptō
4x: to dip,

I have to ask, where did you come across the idea that the practice of pouring or sprinkling has saved millions of lives?

The definitions provided in the Complete Word Study Dictionary by Spiros Zodhiates are merely the personal opinions of Spiros Zodhiates, but unlike James Strong, Zodhiates lacked the solid Biblical education that Strong had. One needs to be aware, however, that all of the Bible study aids that are “keyed to Strong’s” number system are toys designed to help young Christians who know nothing about the Greek language to locate in a Greek dictionary or lexicon the Greek word that they desire to study. Hopefully, these young Christians will grow in their faith and no longer need training wheels to get around.

Albrecht Oepke’s article on the word βαπτίζω and related words in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is short (only 17 pages (529-546) but he discusses well in terms of the Greek grammar the concepts expressed by the words including “The Saving Significance of Baptism Into Christ.”

Is water baptism something that man does—or is it something that God does? When we look at water baptism as something that God does rather than something that man does, the mode of water baptism may become less significant. I was baptized in water by total immersion and at that moment something happened—something that I will probably not fully understand on this side of the river Jordan.

 

[Silverhair]

The definitions provided in the Complete Word Study Dictionary by Spiros Zodhiates are merely the personal opinions of Spiros Zodhiates, but unlike James Strong, Zodhiates lacked the solid Biblical education that Strong had. One needs to be aware, however, that all of the Bible study aids that are “keyed to Strong’s” number system are toys designed to help young Christians who know nothing about the Greek language to locate in a Greek dictionary or lexicon the Greek word that they desire to study. Hopefully, these young Christians will grow in their faith and no longer need training wheels to get around.

Albrecht Oepke’s article on the word βαπτίζω and related words in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is short (only 17 pages (529-546) but he discusses well in terms of the Greek grammar the concepts expressed by the words including “The Saving Significance of Baptism Into Christ.”

Is water baptism something that man does—or is it something that God does? When we look at water baptism as something that God does rather than something that man does, the mode of water baptism may become less significant. I was baptized in water by total immersion and at that moment something happened—something that I will probably not fully understand on this side of the river Jordan.

So what you are saying is that Spiros Zodhiates, William D. Mounce, Joseph Henry Thayer are just giving their personal opinion but Albrecht Oepke’s is not.

You are rather selective in whom you think knows Greek and how the words are used in the NT.

The [water] baptism of John is for repentance the [Spiritual] baptism of the Christ Jesus is for salvation. We see this in Mat 3:11 & Luk_3:16

Are you suggesting that G907 - G911 have different meanings and if so what would those be?

I have asked where did you come across the idea that the practice of pouring or sprinkling has saved millions of lives? And yet you have not given any biblical support for your views.

Biblically no one was saved by water baptism. We are saved by the grace of God through faith.

 

[timf]

The KJV translators obviously knew the Greek sufficiently well to translate it. That they chose to transliterate baptizo rather than translate it shows their understanding of what the reaction would be if they used immersion.

The Greeks used baptizo to describe washing dishes and of ships that sank. This is not some arcane definition that could only be ascertained in the 20th century.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Possibly here:

14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened to give heed unto the things which were spoken by Paul.
15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us. Acts 16

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately.
34 And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God. Acts 16

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 1 Cor 1

Perhaps they were not baptized with water but by the Holy Spirit.

[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[kyredneck]

Baptism has saved no one.

As a profession of faith it delivered/saved/
rescued many from the wrath that came upon ‘that generation’.

 

[Silverhair]

As a profession of faith it delivered/saved/
rescued many from the wrath that came upon ‘that generation’.

"We don't get baptized to be saved, but because we are saved we get baptized."

A professing Christian is saved from the wrath to come, not being baptized does not alter that fact.

You are making "baptism" a condition of salvation.

It seems you have misunderstood your bible.

 

[kyredneck]

A professing Christian is saved from the wrath to come,

As a profession of faith it delivered/saved/
rescued many from the wrath that came upon ‘that generation’.

 

[Silverhair]

So your saying that baptism is a profession of faith that saves.

That is not biblical KY.

 

[Craigbythesea]

"We don't get baptized to be saved, but because we are saved we get baptized."

A professing Christian is saved from the wrath to come, not being baptized does not alter that fact.

You are making "baptism" a condition of salvation.

It seems you have misunderstood your bible.

Acts 10:38. Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 16:16. The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 22:16. And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.'

Titus 3:4. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5. he saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water {Gk [washing]} of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,
26. in order to make her holy by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word,
27. so as to present the church to himself in splendor, without a spot or wrinkle or anything of the kind—yes, so that she may be holy and without blemish.

Colossians 2:11. In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by putting off the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ;
12. when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

1 Peter 3:21. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

1 Peter 3:21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him. NRSV)

Correctly understanding the syntax is not only essential but critical for correctly understanding these two verses. In verse 21, we have one main clause, “baptism now saves you,” and four subordinate clauses (also called a dependent clauses):

1. which this prefigured

2. not as a removal of dirt from the body

3. but as an appeal to God for a good conscience

4. through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Subordinate clause #2 tells us what baptism is not

Subordinate clause #3 tells us what baptism is

The main clause tells us what baptism does—it saves the recipient of baptism!

Subordinate clause #2 CANNOT nullify the main clause because it is dependent upon it.

 

[Silverhair]

You are now making baptism the condition for salvation. Faith is not enough in your mind.

The bible disagrees with you;

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD."

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Baptism is not a requirement of salvation. For someone to teach that faith + water baptism is a requirement for salvation, is to teach another gospel than was taught by Paul. 1Co_15:1-4 Paul did not make water baptism a part of his gospel message and went so far as to say that Christ did not send him to baptize but only to spread the gospel message. 1Co_11:17 This would seem to be a major oversight if water baptism were indeed necessary as no one would have been saved.

If baptism were necessary for salvation then how do you deal with the paralytic man Mat_9:2, the penitent woman Luk_7:37-50, the tax collector Luk_18:13-14, and the thief on the cross Luk_23:39-43. Was Jesus just misleading them? Were they still lost in their sins since none were baptized?