Baptism

[Darron Steele]

So if we get saved by faith but never get baptized are we saved?

Please rephrase your question so that it does not contradict itself. What is the salvation status that you are assuming?

 

[Darron Steele]

Let me split your debate "question" into two and answer what I think is the more meaningful one of them. `If we are saved by faith, can we be saved if we are not baptized?'

Normally, no. In post #6 on this thread, I wrote

Let me first go to Acts 2:38a translated into Portuguese “Arrependei-vos, e seja batizado cada um de vós em nome de Jesus Cristo, para | remissão dos vossos peacados” (DA ERC|DA ERA).

The translation uses the strong imperative for KJV "repent" but the obligatory subjunctive for KJV "be baptized." The verse as translated is best understood as “You-people-repent-you, and-so let-s/he-be-baptized each one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, in-order-for the remission of you-people’s sins." We repent for remission of sins, but that repentance obligates us to be be baptized.

Allow me to add, Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, |but only | the kind of faith that works through love” (NASB|ESV|ICB).

Now, if one was to accept the Gospel in the desert, all alone, and dying, s/he could be saved by such a faith. Other examples could be trapped in a mine or under a pile of rubble and dying. Another example includes a mishap on the way to be baptized. However, in most cases, we have opportunities to be baptized, and if we refuse, we do not have the type of faith described in Acts 2:38 and Galatians 5:6.

 

[El_Guero]

Is there any other way to be saved apart from faith?

So if we get saved by faith but never get baptized are we saved?

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Sportsfreak, for someone who wants discussion, you're spouting CoC one-liners quite a bit, most of which were probably taught you by your preacher.

Anyway, on to your actual response:

Yes you must believe first to be baptized...the jailor had no knowlegde of Jesus so he had to be taught first then believe then he could be baptized

Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Let me break this down for you:

The Greek word "must" in "What must I do to be saved?" is "dei." It means, essentially, the bottom-line necessity of the thing. "Tell me what I absolutely have to do to be saved."

Now, to answer that question with more than "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is to place Paul in error, since that's how he answered it. If that's what is absolutely necessary for salvation, and baptism follows, then we should, logically, be able to find a consistant picture of baptism displayed thus throughout the Scriptures. Let's take a look.

In Matthew 28:19, Jesus says to baptize disciples: "Make disciples, baptizing them..." Remember, a disciple is a Christian, as it was the disciples who were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26). So baptism is to happen to someone who is already a Christian. Well, that fits right in with what we've seen in the example of the jailor, right? So, moving on...

In Mark 1:4, John's baptism (I've mentioned this already, but you didn't read it last time, or at least didn't respond) was "of repentance for the remission of sins." There, the repentance is for the remission of sins; baptism is "of repentance"--in other words, a reflection or expression of that repentance. Repentance goes hand-in-hand with faith, being the "turning away" from what will kill us that must, rationally, accompany the "turning to" God. It is consistant with the story of the jailor--baptism as a reflection of the grace already received.

In Mark 16:16, the only one condemned is "he that believeth not". Baptism, then, is a reflection of the salvation obtained by believing. That Scripture is consistant with the story of the jailor.

In Acts 2:38, as I've mentioned earlier, "remission of sins" is grammatically connected with "repent," leaving baptism as a reflection of that repentance and remission of sins. Remember Mark 1:4. Incidentally, in Luke 24:47, Jesus makes that same link ("that repentance and remission of sins should be preached") without even mentioning baptism. So, baptism is clearly shown as a reflection of grace. Again, that is consistant with its place in the story of the jailor.

In Acts 10, Cornelius and his household were saved (unless, of course, you discount Romans 8:9 which says that we are saved if the Spirit is in us and unsaved if He is not) and then baptized. Again, we see beautiful consistancy in the Scriptures.

In Acts 22:16, Paul is told, "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." The washing away of sins is there connected with calling on the name of the Lord, not upon baptism. Baptism is shown as a reflection of grace, again showing the wonderful consistancy of that story with the story of the jailor.

I could go on, but I will address other Scriptures as they become relevant to the discussion. My point stands: throughout Scripture, baptism is shown as an act for those already saved as a reflection of that salvation.

I urge you not to merely spout the (quite cliche) one-liners that you've been taught in church and really study the Word on this matter.

Michael

 

[Darron Steele]

...
In Acts 2:38, as I've mentioned earlier, "remission of sins" is grammatically connected with "repent," leaving baptism as a reflection of that repentance and remission of sins. Remember Mark 1:4. Incidentally, in Luke 24:47, Jesus makes that same link ("that repentance and remission of sins should be preached") without even mentioning baptism. ...

Following the oldest Greek manuscripts of Luke 24:47, the NASB has "for" instead of and: "repentance for |remission of sins" (NASB|KJV).

 

[Snitzelhoff]

Following the oldest Greek manuscripts of Luke 24:47, the NASB has "for" instead of and: "repentance for |remission of sins" (NASB|KJV).

Oh, okay. That's even better.

Michael

 

[David Michael Harris]

Not sure if this is the right forum..

Must we be baptized to be saved? Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16

Baptism is important yes, but not essential to Salvation, although I believe all Christians should be baptised.

Christ said to the convicted criminal with Him on the cross, today you shall be with Me.

God's Grace covers a lot of discrepencies

Thank You Jesus for Your Love and Grace and thank You Heavenly Father for Jesus Bless You, Blessed God. Worship You and You alone.

 

[sportsfreak490]

Let me split your debate "question" into two and answer what I think is the more meaningful one of them. `If we are saved by faith, can we be saved if we are not baptized?'

Normally, no. In post #6 on this thread, I wrote



Allow me to add, Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, |but only | the kind of faith that works through love” (NASB|ESV|ICB).

Now, if one was to accept the Gospel in the desert, all alone, and dying, s/he could be saved by such a faith. Other examples could be trapped in a mine or under a pile of rubble and dying. Another example includes a mishap on the way to be baptized. However, in most cases, we have opportunities to be baptized, and if we refuse, we do not have the type of faith described in Acts 2:38 and Galatians 5:6.

So how long would we have to be baptized after we are saved?

 

[sportsfreak490]

Sportsfreak, for someone who wants discussion, you're spouting CoC one-liners quite a bit, most of which were probably taught you by your preacher.

Anyway, on to your actual response:



Let me break this down for you:

The Greek word "must" in "What must I do to be saved?" is "dei." It means, essentially, the bottom-line necessity of the thing. "Tell me what I absolutely have to do to be saved."

Now, to answer that question with more than "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is to place Paul in error, since that's how he answered it. If that's what is absolutely necessary for salvation, and baptism follows, then we should, logically, be able to find a consistant picture of baptism displayed thus throughout the Scriptures. Let's take a look.

In Matthew 28:19, Jesus says to baptize disciples: "Make disciples, baptizing them..." Remember, a disciple is a Christian, as it was the disciples who were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26). So baptism is to happen to someone who is already a Christian. Well, that fits right in with what we've seen in the example of the jailor, right? So, moving on...

In Mark 1:4, John's baptism (I've mentioned this already, but you didn't read it last time, or at least didn't respond) was "of repentance for the remission of sins." There, the repentance is for the remission of sins; baptism is "of repentance"--in other words, a reflection or expression of that repentance. Repentance goes hand-in-hand with faith, being the "turning away" from what will kill us that must, rationally, accompany the "turning to" God. It is consistant with the story of the jailor--baptism as a reflection of the grace already received.

In Mark 16:16, the only one condemned is "he that believeth not". Baptism, then, is a reflection of the salvation obtained by believing. That Scripture is consistant with the story of the jailor.

In Acts 2:38, as I've mentioned earlier, "remission of sins" is grammatically connected with "repent," leaving baptism as a reflection of that repentance and remission of sins. Remember Mark 1:4. Incidentally, in Luke 24:47, Jesus makes that same link ("that repentance and remission of sins should be preached") without even mentioning baptism. So, baptism is clearly shown as a reflection of grace. Again, that is consistant with its place in the story of the jailor.

In Acts 10, Cornelius and his household were saved (unless, of course, you discount Romans 8:9 which says that we are saved if the Spirit is in us and unsaved if He is not) and then baptized. Again, we see beautiful consistancy in the Scriptures.

In Acts 22:16, Paul is told, "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." The washing away of sins is there connected with calling on the name of the Lord, not upon baptism. Baptism is shown as a reflection of grace, again showing the wonderful consistancy of that story with the story of the jailor.


I could go on, but I will address other Scriptures as they become relevant to the discussion. My point stands: throughout Scripture, baptism is shown as an act for those already saved as a reflection of that salvation.

I urge you not to merely spout the (quite cliche) one-liners that you've been taught in church and really study the Word on this matter.

Michael

About Matt. 28:19 It says make disciples, baptizing them..wouldnt this show how to make disciples? by baptizing them?

I did not intentially just skip over this earlier, hard to respond to 5 page long posts everytime I get on here. Mark 1:4 I read this as a baptism of repentence so you get baptized because you repent..maybe I am reading it wrong though.

Mark 16:16 Yes I see that it said that if you believe not you will be condemned. But I believe I mentioned earlier you have to believe first before you get baptized, so if you never believe you can never be baptized. Again if I say if you stand up and walk up to me I will give you 100 dollars, but if you dont stand up you cant have the 100 dollars. Do you get the money by just standing up or must you also walk up to me?

thats all i have time for now..sorry

 

[Darron Steele]

Let me split your debate "question" into two and answer what I think is the more meaningful one of them. `If we are saved by faith, can we be saved if we are not baptized?'

Normally, no. In post #6 on this thread, I wrote

Let me first go to Acts 2:38a translated into Portuguese “Arrependei-vos, e seja batizado cada um de vós em nome de Jesus Cristo, para | remissão dos vossos peacados” (DA ERC|DA ERA).

The translation uses the strong imperative for KJV "repent" but the obligatory subjunctive for KJV "be baptized." The verse as translated is best understood as “You-people-repent-you, and-so let-s/he-be-baptized each one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, in-order-for the remission of you-people’s sins." We repent for remission of sins, but that repentance obligates us to be be baptized.

Allow me to add, Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, |but only | the kind of faith that works through love” (NASB|ESV|ICB).

Now, if one was to accept the Gospel in the desert, all alone, and dying, s/he could be saved by such a faith. Other examples could be trapped in a mine or under a pile of rubble and dying. Another example includes a mishap on the way to be baptized. However, in most cases, we have opportunities to be baptized, and if we refuse, we do not have the type of faith described in Acts 2:38 and Galatians 5:6.

So how long would we have to be baptized after we are saved?

The same as you or I should do anything else to please the Lord -- as quickly as possible. As Christians, do we not inherently DESIRE to serve and please the Lord, or does everything have to be by compulsion?

 

[DHK]

So how long would we have to be baptized after we are saved?

That depends on the individual, his circumstances, his teaching, how much he grows and mature as a Christian, that is how fast he grows.

As for myself, I was saved through an interdenominational organization that worked on the campuses of universities. They were great when it came to the practical areas of Christian living--personal devotions, personal Bible Study, witnessing, etc. But just for the fact that they put a lot of emphasis in their own organization they never put much emphasis on the local church. Thus I was never baptized until two years after I was saved. Was I still saved all of that time. You bet I was! I grew tremendously in the Lord. But I didn't receive much teaching on the importance of the local church, nor on baptism.
DHK

 

[Snitzelhoff]

About Matt. 28:19 It says make disciples, baptizing them..wouldnt this show how to make disciples? by baptizing them?

I would say no, and here's why:

Jesus said to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to observe all things that Christ commanded them. So, let me break this down a couple of ways for you.

First, grammatically: to whom or what is "baptizing them" referring? There are only two possibilities: "all nations" or "disciples." Now, I don't know about you, but I've never seen a nation baptized. So "baptizing them" refers to "disciples." In other words, you don't baptize all nations to make them disciples, but you baptize those who are already disciples.

Second, logically: if Jesus was giving the great commission only to tell HOW to make disciples, then "teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you" is a part of making a disciple. You and I both know that's ridiculous. You don't have to know EVERYTHING Jesus taught to be a disciple. So, if "teaching them" is not part of MAKING a disciple, but something that should happen to those who are already disciples, then baptizing (which is in the same tense) is, too.

Follow?

I did not intentially just skip over this earlier, hard to respond to 5 page long posts everytime I get on here. Mark 1:4 I read this as a baptism of repentence so you get baptized because you repent..maybe I am reading it wrong though.

Right. Mark 1:4 is, indeed, a baptism of repentance. And so is Acts 2:38.

Mark 16:16 Yes I see that it said that if you believe not you will be condemned. But I believe I mentioned earlier you have to believe first before you get baptized, so if you never believe you can never be baptized. Again if I say if you stand up and walk up to me I will give you 100 dollars, but if you dont stand up you cant have the 100 dollars. Do you get the money by just standing up or must you also walk up to me?

thats all i have time for now..sorry

Again, Mark 16:16 must be taken in the context of the rest of Scripture. It alone does not say what happens to those who believe without being baptized, so you must look elsewhere in the Bible to discover that. Let's take your money analogy... Let's say you say, "The person who stands up and walks to me gets $100, but he who does not stand up does not get $100" (analogy of Mark 16:16) Let's say someone else then asks, "What do I have to do to get the money?" and you answer, "Stand up and you'll get the money" (analogy of Acts 16:31-32). Based on that, then, what is required to get the money? Only standing. However, someone who really wants the money will stand up and start walking to you, right?

So are ya following me still? If not, simply ask.

Michael