Baptism

[Darron Steele]

Deleted by poster.

 

[Darron Steele]

Matthew 28:19-20 “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations|. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you,| and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” (NASB|NCV|NASB).​

...
So you would baptize someone that you would immediately have to exercise church discipline on? I have a real struggle with that.

Well, unfortunately, from what I see in Scripture, it is not our call.

However, does not Scripture require a multi-step program before the matter is brought toward the whole congregation? That is what I see in Matthew 18.

If someone is "not letting go of sin" then don't baptize them until they do.

Again, Jesus Christ did not give me the option of not baptizing the new Christian.

Are you really going to baptize someone who says, "I know living with my girlfriend is sin, and I shouldn't be doing it, but I like it too much to stop. But I want to get baptized"?

If he is a Christian, then absolutely.

Jesus Christ was clear at Matthew 28:19-20. I do not see where I have permission to disregard that, regardless of how I feel about his activities.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Well, unfortunately, from what I see in Scripture, it is not our call.

As the one doing the baptizing, or as a member of the one who is to guard the church, it most certainly is your call.

However, does not Scripture require a multi-step program before the matter is brought toward the whole congregation? That is what I see in Matthew 18.

Yes, and part of the process is confronting the person living in sin ... not pretending like it is no big deal and letting them continue to play the game of Christianity.

Again, Jesus Christ did not give me the option of not baptizing the new Christian.

Of course not. But how do you know they are a Christian?

If he is a Christian, then absolutely.

Again, how will you know that? A persons who is living in open unrepentant sin is giving no evidence of being a Christian.

 

[MorganT]

Pastor Larry, I can see that neither of us are going to change each others minds so this is a done deal for me. We will find out who is right and who is wrong when we get to heaven, I just dont see it your way and you just dont see it mine. It has nothing to do with either of our salvation therefore its really not worth discussing any further for me. Have a blessed day.

 

[DHK]

Here is the Great Commission, Jesus last command to us before He ascended back into Heaven:

Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

1. Go.
2. Disciple. The term disciple implies first to lead to Christ. Then it implies teaching. A new believer must be taught about the basics of Christianity before the next step is taken.
3. Baptize. Baptism only takes place after a new believer is discipled; ready for baptism. He cannot be baptize without some knowledge as to why he is being baptized. His baptism has nothing to do with his salvation. It does have something to do with becoming a member of the local church, for a local church by definition, is defined as a local assembly composed of baptized regenerated members who have voluntarily associated themselves together for the purpose of carrying out the two ordinance of Christ (baptism and the Lord's Supper), and to obey the Great Commission.
4. The command to teach him all things--as I have taught you.
Discipleship doesn't stop. It never does. We never stop learning. The day you stop learning is the day you die.
5. Recognize the ever presence of Christ.

 

[trustitl]

When Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, he blistered the congregation for failure to deal with a member who was involved in an illicit relationship with his father's wife. In I Cor 5, he told them to kick this man out of the congregation. He, Paul, said he'd already passed judgment on the situation, even though he wasn't there. Part of Paul's tirade was that the congregation was not upset about it, and in fact seem to be "glorying" in it. Paul was not only casting stones, he was hurling boulders at the Corinthian congregation. He told the members, "don't even eat with this guy."

I'm also reminded that when some Pharisees and Sadducees came to John the Baptist, asking for baptism, he didn't mince words. He called them a "generation of vipers," and demanded that they first show evidence of repentance. (Matt 3: 7-8).

The situation described in the OP is a no-brainer.

So you are advocating John's baptism? I'll take baptism into Jesus thank you.

 

[gb93433]

Christ's work on earth is being done with sinners saved by grace who are far from being perfect. God does not care so much where we came from but where we are going. The most important thing is that the lady grow in Christ not experience an example of judgment immediately.

A friend of mine worked with people in a country where men had more than one wife. Imagine him telling someone when a husband came to Christ to abandon his wives and keep just one.

 

[trustitl]

Scenario:

Susan attends a Baptist church. Susan's close friend (Julie) and Julie's boyfriend (Tom) have been visiting her church quite regularly. Recently Julie went forward during an invitation for a profession of faith. She also wanted to be baptized. The pastor has refused to baptize her since she and Tom are living together.

This is a true story, though names have been changed. So what say you? What is the correct Scriptural stance on this?

This entire thread is based on the premise that baptism requires water. DHK cites what is called the great commission and fails to see that the command says nothing about water.

We are to baptize people in "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". People have sadly turned this into a ritual requiring a person to become wet while the mantra "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is recited.

As long as this is misunderstood, the church will be divided over what mode of applying the water is "biblical", who gets to perform this "sacrament", when it should be done, and a myriad of other issues that divide the body of Christ.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3

I'll take this baptism over the infant baptism my parents had performed on me and the "believers baptism" I once thought I needed to do any time.

 

[DHK]

This entire thread is based on the premise that baptism requires water. DHK cites what is called the great commission and fails to see that the command says nothing about water.

Since it is impossible for any human to baptize a person into the Spirit (that is God's work, not ours), the medium must be water. That is a given. Translated correctly the word baptize means immerse. They are to be immersed in the name of of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tom Butler]

So you are advocating John's baptism? I'll take baptism into Jesus thank you.

That's not my point. Just as John the Baptist demanded evidence of repentance from the Pharisees and Sadducees, should we not baptize only those who have repented of their sins and trusted Christ for salvation.

I'm not getting into that debate pitting John's baptism against the baptism by Jesus disciples--except to point out that Jesus submitted to it and endorsed John's ministry.

 

[trustitl]

That's not my point. Just as John the Baptist demanded evidence of repentance from the Pharisees and Sadducees, should we not baptize only those who have repented of their sins and trusted Christ for salvation.

I'm not getting into that debate pitting John's baptism against the baptism by Jesus disciples--except to point out that Jesus submitted to it and endorsed John's ministry.

You know as well as I do that these were two distinct baptisms. You have taken from John's baptism something you want to be a part of being baptized in Jesus name.

You will find no support in scripture for your position as well intended as it is. Your desire to see people free from sin is admirable, but that will only come as a result of being baptized into Jesus death and rising with Him in newness of life.

Romans 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin"

 

[Pastor Larry]

This entire thread is based on the premise that baptism requires water. DHK cites what is called the great commission and fails to see that the command says nothing about water.

Why was John baptizing where the was much water (JOhn 3)? Why was Jesus baptized by going down into the water and coming back out? Why was the Ethiopian eunuch baptized where there was water to go down into and back out of?

Obviously because baptism requires water. The church has never been divided about that.

We are to baptize people in "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". People have sadly turned this into a ritual requiring a person to become wet while the mantra "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is recited.

That's what Jesus said to do.

 

[trustitl]

Since it is impossible for any human to baptize a person into the Spirit (that is God's work, not ours), the medium must be water. That is a given. Translated correctly the word baptize means immerse. They are to be immersed in the name of of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Once again you twist the words. I cited the command to immerse or baptize in the name of something and you say "it is impossible for any human to baptize a person in the Spirit."

The "name" of Jesus represents who he is. That is what we are to immerse them into. That is making a disciple.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[annsni]

This entire thread is based on the premise that baptism requires water. DHK cites what is called the great commission and fails to see that the command says nothing about water.

We are to baptize people in "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". People have sadly turned this into a ritual requiring a person to become wet while the mantra "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is recited.

As long as this is misunderstood, the church will be divided over what mode of applying the water is "biblical", who gets to perform this "sacrament", when it should be done, and a myriad of other issues that divide the body of Christ.

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3

I'll take this baptism over the infant baptism my parents had performed on me and the "believers baptism" I once thought I needed to do any time.

Baptism MEANS immersion - and when it's a sign of our identity with Christ in His burial and resurrection. That's Scriptural.

 

[trustitl]

Baptism MEANS immersion - and when it's a sign of our identity with Christ in His burial and resurrection. That's Scriptural.

I would say it this way:

Baptism means immersion - when we get immersed in water of as a symbolic act of our identifying with Christ's burial and resurrection we are doing something that was done in scripture.

Water baptism is not necessary. Being baptized into Jesus is.

I will preach the latter and allow the former to be an act of conscience.

 

[DHK]

Once again you twist the words. I cited the command to immerse or baptize in the name of something and you say "it is impossible for any human to baptize a person in the Spirit."

The "name" of Jesus represents who he is. That is what we are to immerse them into. That is making a disciple.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

As you say, the name represents the person.
One doesn't baptism "into a name." That is an impossibility. You are being entirely too metaphysical if not existential. The Bible was not meant to be read like that, but was written in Koine Greek (common Greek) to be understood for the common person, not for the highly educated philosophers. In fact Paul speaks against that class of people in 1Cor.1.

Now look at the Greek word for baptism (baptidzo), from Thayer's lexicon:

baptizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe

It is water baptism; there is no doubt about it.

Compare Scripture with Scripture.
Acts 8:38-39 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
--They went into the water; they came up out of the water. It was obvious immersion into water, not simply the Spirit.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Water baptism is not necessary.

Necessary for what? Not for salvation, to be sure. But it is necessary for obedience. The command to baptize people is the command to be baptized.

I will ... allow the former to be an act of conscience.

It is an act of obedience.

 

[trustitl]

As you say, the name represents the person.
One doesn't baptism "into a name." That is an impossibility. You are being entirely too metaphysical if not existential. The Bible was not meant to be read like that, but was written in Koine Greek (common Greek) to be understood for the common person, not for the highly educated philosophers. In fact Paul speaks against that class of people in 1Cor.1.

And Spirit baptism isn't metaphysical? It is the ultimate example of metaphysical.

A common Greek would have known that "baptizo" did not need water. That is why "baptized into fire" or "baptized unto Moses" made sense to them.

You say one doesn't baptize into a name yet that is exactly what Jesus said to do.

 

[DHK]

And Spirit baptism isn't metaphysical? It is the ultimate example of metaphysical.

One is baptized by the Spirit once and only once--when he is saved. Man cannot do that. The action is done by God. It is Christ that saves; not man. Or do you believe that salvation is of man?
Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works--it is a gift of God.
It happens when one trusts Christ as their Saviour, and that is when one is baptized by the Spirit; the only Spirit-baptism that takes place.

However that baptism in the Great Commission takes place after salvation; after discipleship. There are not two Spirit baptisms. There is only one that takes place at salvation. This baptism in the Great Commission is commanded by Jesus to be carried out by His disciples. The disciples do not carry around the Holy Spirit in their pockets to disperse on every new believer. They immerse new believers in water, as the Lord commanded them.

 

[trustitl]

One is baptized by the Spirit once and only once--when he is saved.

Is there a verse that talks about the Spirit baptizing us? I have heard of being baptized in or with the Spirit, but not by BY the Spirit. Just curious.

Man cannot do that. The action is done by God. It is Christ that saves; not man. Or do you believe that salvation is of man?

Why do you ask me this on almost every topic? Is there something I say that makes you think I teach that we save ourselves.

Salvation is by grace through faith, not of works--it is a gift of God.
It happens when one trusts Christ as their Saviour, and that is when one is baptized by the Spirit; the only Spirit-baptism that takes place.

Here again is baptized BY the Spirit.

However that baptism in the Great Commission takes place after salvation; after discipleship. There are not two Spirit baptisms. There is only one that takes place at salvation. This baptism in the Great Commission is commanded by Jesus to be carried out by His disciples. The disciples do not carry around the Holy Spirit in their pockets to disperse on every new believer. They immerse new believers in water, as the Lord commanded them.

You have water baptism after salvation and after being a disciple? Explain how you scripturally arrived at this and how this plays out in a person's life. For example, how long does one have to be a disciple to get baptized and how does one prove ones discipleship? Also, who is the person that determines these things?