Are you saying you do not agree with me of what I wrote, which is "We are on the same page here. And this is what I have said, and you also. That today all that believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (Jew & Gentile) will be saved." I find on heresy in TRUTH.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Baptism +
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
Dr. Walter
New Member
Yes, you have understood me correctly. The key factor of your statement is the limitation found in the word "today." Remove that term and we are on the same page as justification through/by faith in Christ has been the same yesterday, today and forever - there is no other way of salvation from Genesis to Revelation.
You need to study Paul's use of "children of promise" and "children of faith" in connection with Abraham. It is inclusive of all true children of God from Genesis to Revelation whether Jew or Gentile and justification through/by faith is exemplified in the salvation of Abraham and that is precisely why he is called "the father of all who believe."
Please let me tell you why I disagree with you, and actually it is not I you disagree with, but scripture proves what I say.
"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" Ephesians 3:1-6.
Today is not yesterday. Today had it's beginning on Damascus Road for we Gentiles. You are saying Yesterday is Today. To Abraham yesterday was Noah. To Moses yesterday was Abraham. To John the Baptist, the Law and the Prophets were yesterday. Before Pentecost was Jesus on earth. From Pentecost to Damascus Road was yesterday. Yesterday we had no word from God the Gentile would be carrying the Gospel to the whole world, instead of the Jew.
It is that Gospel, which Peter said they could NOW access, is the Gospel we preach today.
I would hope you would agree that gospel is without any WORKS by us, or of any mans hands, for it is by the Grace of God, through the blood; through Jesus; through the Cross; through the faith of Jesus that He would be raised from the dead, and join His Father in heaven. So Now we know the truth, Through Sanctification of the Spirit we are saved.
Your belief that man knew from the very beginning everything we know today is in error. No man new until Christ Jesus told it from heaven.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Just because Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and just because God revealed this truth to Paul does not mean that it had not already been revealed to others:
Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
James confirmed this testimony that Peter was the first that God chose to preach the gospel to the Gentiles and Paul was present when Peter said this and did not dispute Peter's claim:
Acts 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at THE FIRST did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
However, James says this was in perfect keeping with Old Testament teaching:
Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Now, here is where I think you are failing to understand Paul's statement you quote in Ephesians 2. His statement does not contradict that Gentiles were saved YESTERDAY the same way they are saved TODAY. His statement in regard to YESTERDAY involves TWO aspects, salvation plust service in the house of God. Yesterday saved Jews and Gentiles were not brought into the house of God on an EQUAL basis but there was a "middle wall of partition" that SEPARATED them YESTERDAY. Not so TODAY. TODAY saved Jews and Gentiles are brought into a NEW house of God where there is not "middle wall of partition" and they serve God EQUALLY - this is the new revelation.
Neither the gospel, the way of salvation, justification by faith in the gospel are new but THE SAME - Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43, 26:22-23.
What is NEW is the NEW HOUSE OF GOD which allows Jews and Gentiles saved equally to SERVE EQUALLY side by side in the NEW house of God.
I have never said that "man knew from the very beginning EVERYTHING we know today...."
What I have said is that they are saved the very same way, same gospel, same savior, same justification by faith in Christ.
However, before the cross they looked FORWARD by faith but we look BACK by faith. Before the cross it was UNFULFILLED but after the cross it has been FULFILLED. Before the cross "how" Christ accomplished our salvation was given in progressive revelation whereas after the cross it is completed revelation.
What you are failing to see is the new aspect in Ephesians 2 statement concerns "the middle wall of partition" not the gospel and concerns equality in the new house of God not a new way of being saved.
By Abraham we are made heirs also. God foresaw this need before the beginning, and in His foreknowledge it was necessary such a man as Abram be born. Just as God saw in eternity that there would have to be a NOAH, the One man that that would believe him, one that would find grace in the eyes of the Lord. It is by the GRACE of God that we are saved. And in every dispensation of God, He tells those that believe to do certain things. He did not tell Noah, and He did not tell Abram/Abraham to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be justified.
Have you noticed what you hold to was not known to man until…, until when? What you know NOW is because you have read the gospel (contained in Paul's Epistles) that Christ Jesus revealed to Paul from heaven. Our salvation was SET even Before the Begging! We can believe Paul, or we can believe others. "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9. And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:8-9.
I understand about Abram/Abraham, and I know Abraham did not understand what we today understand, and NO MAN understood until after Damascus Road. By Abraham came circumcisionn, the Law, and Jesus.
freeatlast
New Member
Yes I believe it is wrong. The picture of baptism is one death One God one resurrection. Three dunking's is like saying that Christ dies more then once and rose more then once. One dunking is complete, not three.
Dr. Walter
New Member
You are an uninspired man making uninspired philosophical assumptions that fly directly in the face of inspired men and their own literal factual words.
He did tell them to believe on Christ (Not Jesus) as the scriptures plainly says that is eactly what the prophets preached for them to do:
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
You do not understand that "justification" invovles TWO ESSENTIALS. It involves remission of sins due to faith in Christ and Imputation of righteousness and both are through faith in Christ (Rom. 4:5-8). Both aspects are stated clearly in Acts 10:43. Hebrews 4:2 states clearly that the same gospel was "PREACHED" unto them as well as unto us. Hence, you are an uninspired man teaching non-Biblical false philosophy directly opposed to inspired men and their explicit inspired words.
Old Testament saints did not now that Jesus of Nazereth was the Christ but they nevertheless knew and beleived in a coming Christ. Old Testament saints did not know about the cross as the instrument he would die on but they knew from Genesis 3:15 that he would suffer to save them.
They knew they needed righteousness they did not have and they knew they need remission of sins and this constituted their salvation and they knew that this salvation was promised in the coming Christ. The scripture repeatedly make this clear (Acts 10:43; 26:22-23; Heb. 4:2; Rom. 4:4-8; Gal. 3:6-17; etc.). You simply do not know what you are talking about!
You do not understand a thing about "children of promise" in regard to Abraham or you would not make these ignorant statements. Jesus said that Abraham SAW His day and believed. The writer of hebrews defines how he SAW it - he saw it "BY FAITH" and believed in Christ as His Savior just as David and Isaiah did. Paul says that the covenant with Abraham was confirmed "IN CHRIST" (Gal. 3:17) not OUTSIDE OF CHRIST. You cannot get a more clear gospel for remission of sin expressed THROUGH FAITH in CHRIST than Isaiah 53.
Salvation for Gentiles was NEVER NEW as all the saints previous to Jacob's Son's were GENTILES and saved by the same gospel of grace through faith in the coming Christ for JUSTIFICATION (remission of sins; imputed righteousness). It was not NEW during the days of Moses as Rahab was a Gentile. It was not new during the days of Jonah as Ninevites were saved.
The ONLY thing NEW was that Gentile believers were to be brought into GOD'S HOUSE on a EQUAL level with Jews and that no "wall of separation" would exist in the NEW house of God - the congregation!
[/QUOTE]Who else told you about this?Dr. [QUOTE said:
This is after Damascus Road.
WHY WOULD Paul dispute this? God knew the Apostles, or any one else would not believe Paul, the Chief Tormentor of the church. The act of having Peter to be the first one shown in scripture to preach the Gospel, that Christ Jesus gave to Paul, is to show ALL that change has been made. The change came only after Christ Jesus had chosen Paul to take the Gospel of Grace through faith to the whole world. James and Peter said No Thank You, for we will only go to the JEW. If not for Paul you would never have been included to have those Apostles to show you the Way of Grace Through Faith.
This is scripture and I believe it, but what I don't believe is what you believe. I believe other scripture also. If you do believe other scripture, trying to work it in with what you are saying, then all you have is insurmountable contradiction. The prophets didn't know the whole story. They could not have known of the call the Colossians got (Colossians 3:15);
What Acts 14-17 tells us is what the prophets knew, and what they didn't know. The prophets didn't know the whole story. Did they know about the Body of Christ bering the Church as we see in Colossians? Had they known they would have told us.
What the prophets knew is shown to us in Acts 15:14-17 and what they KNEW was exactly what James and the rest knew, which was ZIP, before it actually happened. All we need do is go back to Acts 10, and see how the Gentile is saved. Those of the circumcision were astonished, for they had never heard of such a thing. Then look at James and the others in Jerusalem lambasting Peter in this matter. They wanted to know by whose authority Peter had done such a dastardly thing. The prophets prophesied, but didn't understand any more than did James and the others. It was hidden that the Gentile would be brought into the very center of the Temple. This to them was sacrilege as shown in the OT, and the NT. This was HID from all, until after Damascus Road. Please read various in Paul's Epistle's, such as in Colossians 1:24-27.
Much of what you say here is what I have been trying to tell you, viz. until you arrive at ACTS 9, and then through all of Paul's Epistles (Gospel of John later confirms), do you know all of what you say. Why do we refuse to believe that in the mysteries of God, He hid things from man, until it was time?
Dr. Walter
New Member
Your idea is formed by pitting scripture against scripture which is always indicative of a false doctrine.
Peter did not receive ANYTHING from Paul concerning Gentiles as what he received came directly through a threefold repeated vision from God. Peter did not preach any NEW gospel to the Gentiles in Acts 10:43 but the same old gospel with one exception. The "Christ" of the old Testament Gospel is now defined as the historical "Jesus" from Nazereth.
Neither did Paul preach any other gospel than the same gospel preached by all the prophets and Paul explicitly states this as fact in Acts 26:22-23 long after his salvation on the damascus road - he says that he preached '"NONE OTHER THINGS"!
The only thing NEW that was revealed to both Peter and Paul SEPERATELY from each other by God was that the Gentiles would be EQUAL in God's house, the "middle wall of partition" would be removed in the new house of God. This was the MYSTERY hidden now revealed because the Old Testament prophets NEVER SAID A WORD ABOUT THE NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION and or its make up.
The old Testament said much about God going to the Gentiles and that is what James confirms by the Scriptures in Acts 15 and what Paul confirms by the Old Testament Scriptures everywhere he went. SALVATION OF GENTILES WAS NO MYSTERY AT ALL as gentiles had been saved in the Old Testament. What was the MYSTERY and predicted by the Old Testament prophets was that God would forsake Israel and turn to the Gentiles. This is the mystery that Paul boasted in before the Gentiles as this was his calling as an apostle to the gentiles.
Your theory is simply plain old hogwash. The good news of the substitutionary Christ for remission of sins is clearly preached in Isaiah 53 and justification freely by grace through faith is plainly taught in Isaiah 55:1-9 as "the sure mercies of David" and many other places (Acts 10:43).
Go learn what "the sure mercies of David" means! Trace this phrase from its origin in the Old Testament right into the New Testament and you will find it is justification through faith in Christ just as we preach today.
Last edited by a moderator:
We are told to go to the scriptures for our information. If we find contradictions we need to study scripture more closely to see where we went wrong. Scripture will prove itself. If it doesn't, therein lie falsities.
What you refuse to believe is that Peter was told three (3) times what he could eat, and three (3) times Peter did not understand, and stood in doubt. So God forced Peter into three (3) things, against Peter's will. He forced him to go to a Gentile. Then when he got there in was forced to go into a Gentile home. These two things were disgusting to Peter, and every other upstanding Israelite before, and after Pentecost. Then Peter was forced, and controlled by God to deliver a sermon to these heathen dogs. And the sermon God put into the mouth of Peter was the gospel that scripture calls Paul's Gospel to the Gentile.
Take a good look at where Paul is. He is on trial for falsely being accused of the renunciation of Moses. What did Paul say? "which the prophets and Moses did say should come:" What did Paul preach in the Synagogues? Just what he says in the next verse (23), "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles." They wished to kill Paul for going into their synagogues, and not preaching what Peter was. Paul preached just what Peter did to the Jew, and any proselytes there.
Well, you finally said it. You are admitting Paul does have a gospel that cannot be found in prophecy.. RIGHT?
You are trying to say I have said things I have never said. I have never said Gentiles were not saved before Damascus Road. Before Christ Jesus spoke to Paul, could a Gentile be in the Body of Christ? I too, today can be in the Body of Christ. I choose the Heavenlies, rather than to be of the earth which Israel will inherit. Isn't Paul the Apostle of GRACE that goes UP, rather than what we find in OT of GRACE that comes Down to earth?
Is it David you are trusting? It was the Word of God (Jesus) that was born of Mary, and it is He that sit on that Throne (Luke 1:27-33, and this will usher in the SURE MERCES OF David. Read further verses 67 to 77 to gain more knowledge.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Nothing you have said is true to the scriptures. God did not force Peter to do anything and Peter did not preach "Paul's gospel" but he explicitly preached the only gospel there is which all the prophets preached.
PETER WENT WILLING WITH THEM
19 ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23 Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.....
28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?
PETER PREACHED THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST
34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Do you actually think that simply explaining the background changes his words??? He still claimed that the gospel he preached in verse 23 is the gospel preached by all the prophets just as Peter did in Acts 10:43. Here is what you refuse to accept and that is Paul said all the prophets preached that Christ "SHOULD" be preached among JEWS and GENTILES "should shew lgiht unto the people (JEWS) and to the Gentiles" - these words repudiate your "new" gospel idea altogether. Paul is claiming that his gospel is NO DIFFERENT than what the prophets preached because the prophets preached the gospel to the gentiles as well as to the jews! Have you ever heard of the salvation of all Ninevah? Have you read the book of Ruth? Have you heard of the salvation of Rahab?? The SAME gospel preached to gentiles by the prophets is the same Gospel preached to gentiles by Paul. The same gospel preached to gentiles by Peter is the same gospel preached to gentiles by Paul. The same gospel Jesus preached to gentiles (John 12) is the same gospel Paul preached to Gentiles. The same gospel preached to Jews by the prophets is the same gospel preached to Gentiles by the congregations because the great commission given to his all Jewish congregation at Jerusalem was the commission to preach the same gospel to both JEWS and GENTILES (Acts 1:8; Mt. 28:19-20).
You don't read too well do you? I said no such thing! What I said was "new" was not His gospel but his teaching on the house of God. In the NEW house of God there was to be no middle wall of partition that separated Jews from Gentiles - no more inferior role to the Jew in God's plan of SERVICE!
Hence, no new gospel of salvation for gentiles before or after the damascus road but the same old gospel (Acts 4:12; 10:43). The body of Christ has nothing to do with salvation but with service after one is already saved. What kind of insane logic says God could not save gentiles and put them into his congregations before God spoke to a certain human being on a certain road to Damascus as though that speech cleared it all over the rest of the world????? That is imagination at its weirdest! You refuse to believe that the gospel Jesus delivered to Paul was the gospel he delivered to all other apostles as there is no other gospel of Christ but the accursed one (Gal. 1:8-9).
You have no concept of what is "the sure mercies of David"? It is salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ for remission of sins:
Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow. 2 Sam. 23:5
Study these words carefully as they are repeated throughout the scriptures as the "SURE mercies of David."
1. Although my house be not so with God" - Although my house is not sinless
2. Yet he hath made an everlasting covenant" - Heb. 13:20;
3. Ordered in all things, and sure" - eternal security
4. "this is all my salvation" God's covenant of grace in Christ through faith -
Acts 2:25-30; 13:34; Isa. 55:3-6
5. All my desire - Acts 10:43 as David was a prophet
6. Although he make it not to grow - final manifestation not now apparent
Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
David acknowledged that Christ was His Lord
David believed Christ was coming
David believed Christ would be raised from the dead
David believed in Christ for personal salvation based upon the everlasting covenant of grace.
There is no OTHER name given to men under heaven AT ANY TIME wherein there is salvation for Jew or Gentile.
Last edited by a moderator:
WestminsterMan
New Member
Agreed.
Ephesians 4:4-5 (King James Version)
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism
If it's done in a valid way using the trinitarian formula, that should be the end of it.
Peace!
WM
Dr. Walter
New Member
If it were only the right mode (immersion) and the trinitarian formula that constituted Biblical baptism you might have a point but that is not all that is required in Biblical baptism.
Take note where baptism is placed in the Great Commission. It is placed between going with the gospel assuming they have received the gospel by faith (Mt. 28:19 with Mark 16:15) and then assimulating them into the local congregation where they are taught how to practically observe all things commanded.
The same order is found in Acts 2:41 (1) received the gospel (2) were baptized and added unto them (3) continued stedfastly in the apostles doctrine.
Jesus did not give just anyone authority to administer baptism. It gave to those who go with the true gospel who are in addition capable of teaching the true faith and order of the New Testament scriptures. This is a commission to "make disciples" or reproduce after YOUR OWN KIND. He only authorized those to baptize who were LIKE FAITH AND ORDER with him "whatsoever I have commanded you".
No one in the New Testament period administered baptism that was not LIKE FAITH AND ORDER with Christ and His congregations - No one! He did not authorize anyone outside of LIKE FAITH AND ORDER to administer baptism and for good reason. Those outside LIKE FAITH AND ORDER are considered heretics in the Scripture and are forewarned about (Acts 20:29-31; 1 Tim. 4:1).
1. Those who preach "another gospel" are accursed not authorized by Christ
2. The "brother" that departs from the faith are to be repudiated and separated from not recognized as authorized by Christ (2 Thes. 3:6)
Lets say the Lord saved you today. You read the scriptures and saw that you should be baptized. So you went to the Roman CAtholic Preist and asked to be immersed in the Triune name and then turned to everyone in the audiance after the baptism and declared you are now a saved Reformed Baptist what would they think and say????
They would say you are nuts because if that were the case you would have never sought out and submitted to a Roman Catholic Priest for baptism as the administrator identifies you publicly with their FAITH AND PRACTICE.
Jesus did not authorizen anyone to administer baptism that did not publicly identify the candidate with HIS FAITH AND PRACTICE (the right gospel and the right doctrine and practice).
No one has authority to administer baptism who is not LIKE FAITH AND ORDER with New Testament congregations. If you believe your denomination is LIKE FAITH AND ORDER with New Testament congregations then you should not accept baptism by any denomination you reject as LIKE FAITH AND ORDER with New Testament congregations.
I didn't say Peter did not go with them. Peter would not have gone with them unless He had been commanded to do so. Peter is urged (commanded to go); otherwise he would not have gone to a Gentile without having been pushed into it. Peter had no idea of what was going on, as verse 21 shows. He wants to know, why are you men here? He says it again in verse 28, i.e. "for what intent ye have sent for me?"
Why not just accept the fact that Peter is a good servant of God, did what he was told, without knowing why,
Yes he did, BUT what is the Gospel up to this point? Is it not to fear God, and do Works of Righteousness, and then preached the Cross, but not of Grace THROUGH Faith. Why didn't he say this as He ends the sermon in verse 41? Because verse 42 tells us the reason. "42, "Amd he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead." All through the Bible we see these words, the people, and that means God's Own People, those of Israel. This tells us that Peter was never ordained to be a Preacher to the Gentile of Grace Through Faith. Peter couldn't combine what he preached to the Jew, with what is preached to a Gentile.
Since this is after Damascus Road, NOW can be Witnessed by the Prophets (including Peter, and others with him) "that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins", verse 43.
From Acts 1 up until this point we cannot find this gospel preached to anyone, but it shall come to pass, as is said on the day of Pentecost. In the LAST DAYS, Peter is witness as he sees it with his own eyes, as we see in verses 43, and 44. If you believe Peter preached this GOSPEL, then you are denying what he preached to Israel, in Acts 2:38, " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
We can believe One, or the Other, but not BOTH. One is of the Kingdom of God, and the other is The Body of Christ.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
You simply reject the plain explicit Word of God!
Peter is obeying Acts 1:8 and Matthew 28;19-20 and Acts 2:41-42 proves that. Of course the Great Commission is a command! The Great commission is a command that extends to THE END OF THE AGE and TO THE JEW EQUALLY AS TO THE GENTILE. God has not given another AGE LONG mission.
Last edited by a moderator:
Salvation of Nineveh? It was destroyed later after repenting. The GRACE of God has always existed, as we see in the two women you point to. They and two other women\ considered Heathen are in the bloodline of Jesus. God's Grace extends to all, but we must believe what we are told in the time that we live. I must believe Paul, and you say you must believe David???
It would help if you would only believe what the Bible says. In Acts 26:22-23 Paul states he preached, 22. "one other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come". And what was that? 23. "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles." Isn't it true that Paul brought light, just as did Peter? Nowhere can you find in scripture that a prophet ever said the heathen Gentile would be justified through faith.You are trying to say something that God hid, but you say No, He Did Not.
Did Paul bring LIGHT that no one else did? Was it not Paul, and only Paul that tells you about the Rapture? Who told you about by the Grace of God, through faith only Gift of salvation, without no work of our own? Why is Paul the only one to tell you about the Body of Christ Church? You believe what Jesus said while on Earth. Why not believe what He revealed from Heaven
You are saying it again. Where do you find this information? You only find it in Paul's writings, because it came from heaven in order to help understand the Body of Christ. You would not understand unless you were told.
Oh! If only you would believe the warning in Peter (II Peter 3:16). Oh! I wish you could understand Paul. It is so very plain, if only you would let yourself believe Paul. He tells you in the verse you show in Galatians 1:8 what Peter is talking about. All you need to do is read, and understand what Paul is saying in these previous verses, viz. Gelatinous 1:6-8, " I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
That other gospel that is not another gospel is the Gospel of Bondage, of the Law, and of the circumcision with its rituals, customs, and ordnances. You don't see that Paul is saying don't try to put the partition up again to separate us.[quote
Dr. Walter
New Member
You do not believe in the very scriptures you are quoting. "THE PEOPLE and THE GENTILES" (Jews and Gentiles).
The Prophets preached that Christ should, the Great Commission given by Christ DOES include Jews and Gentiles on the SAME BASIS with each other in regard to the gospel of remission of sins unto the SAME EXTENT - unto the end of the world by the SAME GOSPEL.
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Mt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
1. The Great commission was first given to the TWELVE (no Paul)
2. The twelve were commissioned to preach to ALL NATIONS, GENTILES, ALL THE WORLD
3. The Twelve were commissioned to preach "remission of sins" to ALL NATIONS, GENTILES
4. The Twelve were commissioned to preach "remission of sins" to GENTILES until THE END OF THE WORLD.
5. This is what all the prophets predicted which Paul confessed he preached NONE OTHER THINGS than what should be preached to JEWS and GENTILES by Christ's commission "unto the people" (JEWS) and "unto the Gentiles" - Acts 26:23
The Apostle John in the book of Revelation brings to LIGHT more about the second coming than Paul ever knew!
Peter brought to light things about the second coming that Paul never did (2 Pet. 3:1-12).
Here is what you are completely and willfully ignorant about! Christ never gave more than ONE COMMISSION after his resurrection and it included the Gentiles, included the same gospel, same baptism, same faith and order that Jesus taught and it was to preach "the remission of sins" to the WHOLE WORLD until THE END OF THE WORLD. Paul was commissioned by Christ to preach the same message TO THE JEW FIRST and then TO THE GENTILE just as the 12 apostles were commissioned to preach to THE JEW FIRST and then TO THE GENTILES:
Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 26: 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Did you read that? "BY" faith is the commission given to Paul as well as "THROUGH" faith - they are snynomous!!
Did you read that? "BY" faith is the commission given to Paul as well as "THROUGH" faith - they are snynomous!!
Did you read that? "BY" faith is the commission given to Paul as well as "THROUGH" faith - they are snynomous!!
Did you read that? "BY" faith is the commission given to Paul as well as "THROUGH" faith - they are snynomous!!
Did you read that? "BY" faith is the commission given to Paul as well as "THROUGH" faith - they are snynomous!!
Did you read that? "BY" faith is the commission given to Paul as well as "THROUGH" faith - they are snynomous!!
Dr. Walter
New Member
Acts 26: 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
.Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Did you read that? Paul teaches we are justified "BY" faith as well as "THROUGH" faith - they are snynomous!!
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
So don't tell us that Paul did not teach that justification was "by" faith and that imputed righteousness was "by" faith. Don't tell us that Jews were justified "by" faith and gentiles were justified "through" faith as though they were different!
The differnence between "by" and "through" faith is the difference between the agency and the object of faith. "By" faith is contrasted to "by works" and "through" faith refers to what is the object faith embraces. Both are essential for the same salvation, same gospel before and after the cross. Old Testament saints were saved "by" faith instead of "by" works and they were saved "through" faith which terminated on the object of Christ and his redemptive work. Likewise with the Post-cross saints. Likewise with Jewish versus Gentile saints. The preposition "by" defines faith as the agency in contrast to works. The preposition "through" defines faith as the channel or conduit that terminates on Christ as the object of faith.
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ro 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ro 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
.Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Did you read that? Paul teaches we are justified "BY" faith as well as "THROUGH" faith - they are snynomous!!
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Ro 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
So don't tell us that Paul did not teach that justification was "by" faith and that imputed righteousness was "by" faith. Don't tell us that Jews were justified "by" faith and gentiles were justified "through" faith as though they were different!
The differnence between "by" and "through" faith is the difference between the agency and the object of faith. "By" faith is contrasted to "by works" and "through" faith refers to what is the object faith embraces. Both are essential for the same salvation, same gospel before and after the cross. Old Testament saints were saved "by" faith instead of "by" works and they were saved "through" faith which terminated on the object of Christ and his redemptive work. Likewise with the Post-cross saints. Likewise with Jewish versus Gentile saints. The preposition "by" defines faith as the agency in contrast to works. The preposition "through" defines faith as the channel or conduit that terminates on Christ as the object of faith.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes! That's the Gospel of Christ.
A man must be mad to think it's not, whether he believes it or not.
God be with you!
A man must be mad to think it's not, whether he believes it or not.
God be with you!
I have read scripture, and understand I am to correctly divide out of His Word the meanings. Yet it is not I, but just allowing scripture to do it for me. My mind will lead me astray, so I must not allow contradiction to rule in my thinking. Should I agree with you, then I would be saying that David knew in whose name he must believe in. David or any other man knew Messiah's name, and Messiah had not yet shed His Blood. Jesus' name was Secret as Jacob, and Moses will testify. Your false inference that David knew all things is just not so. Scripture will not allow this.
I have never said otherwise.
This IS what I have been telling you over and over. What Is Christ's name? CHRIST'S NAME IS JESUS (YESHUA).