Baptism

[ryarn]

Mt 3:13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mt 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Obiedience (John's water baptism) then real Baptism (from the HOLY SPIRIT) Are thier Baptist that believe water baptism saves you ?

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Mt 3:13 ¶ Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mt 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Mt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Obiedience (John's water baptism) then real Baptism (from the HOLY SPIRIT) Are thier Baptist that believe water baptism saves you ?

I do not.

But I do not believe that "obedience" is the reason for being baptized.

 

[Herald]

Baptism is a sign of the thing signified. It symbolizes the believer's death to sin, being raised to life, and being identified with Christ. It is a command to be obeyed by every believer (Matthew 28:19-20; Acts 2:38; 16:33; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-5; Colossians 2:12).

 

[annsni]

I don't believe there are any Baptists (official stances of the different Baptist groups) that believe water baptism saves you.

 

[Tom Butler]

There's a reason we call baptism an ordinance instead of a sacrament. It is, that it's not a sacrament. Sacraments by definition carry with them some salvific efficacy.

 

[awaken]

Water baptism does not save anyone!

 

[ryarn]

Just checking, I've heard a lot of things come from people who claimed that they were Baptists:smilewinkgrin:

 

[saturneptune]

Baptism does not save anyone, but sprinkling would certainly save on the water bill.

 

[Brandon C. Jones]

I agree with other posters that there are no Baptists who believe baptism is even an instrumental means of salvation like you might find among some Stone-Campbell believers.

However, I must disagree with Tom Butler because there are some Baptists, myself included, who are comfortable with calling baptism a sacrament as a means of grace, but certainly not a means of salvific grace. Moreover, several Baptists from a few centuries ago defended their view of believer baptism with sacramental concepts and sometimes with sacramental terminology. Sacraments do not by definition entail means of salvific grace for all Christian traditions (e.g. Reformed and Baptist would be two clear exceptions).

For more on a sacramental, as opposed to ordinance-only meaning, of believer baptism, see my book "Waters of Promise: Finding Meaning in Believer Baptism" (Eugene, OR: Pickwick, 2012). I write more about the purpose of the book here: http://blog.herreidbaptist.com/2012/10/my-book-waters-of-promise-is-now.html

 

[Tom Butler]

I agree with other posters that there are no Baptists who believe baptism is even an instrumental means of salvation like you might find among some Stone-Campbell believers.

However, I must disagree with Tom Butler because there are some Baptists, myself included, who are comfortable with calling baptism a sacrament as a means of grace, but certainly not a means of salvific grace. Moreover, several Baptists from a few centuries ago defended their view of believer baptism with sacramental concepts and sometimes with sacramental terminology. Sacraments do not by definition entail means of salvific grace for all Christian traditions (e.g. Reformed and Baptist would be two clear exceptions).

For more on a sacramental, as opposed to ordinance-only meaning, of believer baptism, see my book "Waters of Promise: Finding Meaning in Believer Baptism" (Eugene, OR: Pickwick, 2012). I write more about the purpose of the book here: http://blog.herreidbaptist.com/2012/10/my-book-waters-of-promise-is-now.html

I don't think we're very far apart on the question. I shy away from using such terms as "sacrament" and "means of grace" because they are associated with the RCC. It seems somewhat contradictory (and confusing) to use those terms, then qualify them by saying they are not salvific.

That said, I do think we modern Baptists should attach more significance to baptism than just a "dunking." It is a serious and sacred act, by which we identify with the Lord Christ and his claim on our life and our soul.

 

[MB]

I do not.

But I do not believe that "obedience" is the reason for being baptized.

Then why did Christ need baptism?
MB

 

[MB]

I don't think we're very far apart on the question. I shy away from using such terms as "sacrament" and "means of grace" because they are associated with the RCC. It seems somewhat contradictory (and confusing) to use those terms, then qualify them by saying they are not salvific.

That said, I do think we modern Baptists should attach more significance to baptism than just a "dunking." It is a serious and sacred act, by which we identify with the Lord Christ and his claim on our life and our soul.

Then even you must admit that it is more than just a dunking. For myself Baptism is a profession of faith and a semblance of the death, burial, and resurrection, with Christ.
MB

 

[Tom Butler]

Then even you must admit that it is more than just a dunking. For myself Baptism is a profession of faith and a semblance of the death, burial, and resurrection, with Christ.
MB

I couldn't have said it better. We are agreed.

 

[convicted1]

Then why did Christ need baptism?
MB

Here's why Jesus needed to be baptized:

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Jesus' baptism was a sign to John that the prophesied Messiah to come, was here.

 

[MB]

Here's why Jesus needed to be baptized:



Jesus' baptism was a sign to John that the prophesied Messiah to come, was here.

True but not everyone seems to know this.
MB

 

[percho]

Then why did Christ need baptism?
MB

IMHO It was a teaching aid of prophesy of how the righteousness of God is fulfilled.

That is through death of the Son and being made alive again, receiving the Holy Spirit, and declared to be the Son.

The washing of water of the word.

A word of prophesy by the Prophet.

 

[Benjamin]

I agree with other posters that there are no Baptists who believe baptism is even an instrumental means of salvation like you might find among some Stone-Campbell believers.

However, I must disagree with Tom Butler because there are some Baptists, myself included, who are comfortable with calling baptism a sacrament as a means of grace, but certainly not a means of salvific grace. Moreover, several Baptists from a few centuries ago defended their view of believer baptism with sacramental concepts and sometimes with sacramental terminology. Sacraments do not by definition entail means of salvific grace for all Christian traditions (e.g. Reformed and Baptist would be two clear exceptions).

For more on a sacramental, as opposed to ordinance-only meaning, of believer baptism, see my book "Waters of Promise: Finding Meaning in Believer Baptism" (Eugene, OR: Pickwick, 2012). I write more about the purpose of the book here: http://blog.herreidbaptist.com/2012/10/my-book-waters-of-promise-is-now.html

That's odd, I was just thinking of you and your expressions on your views regarding this subject yesterday while reading another thread and again when beginning to read this one. Think I'll have to check that book out...

 

[Brandon C. Jones]

Hi Tom,

I understand what you mean, although I of course wouldn't say my approach is contradictory. But you have a point about it being confusing when some people have a narrow view of what "sacrament" means.

Schreiner and Wright avoid the term "sacrament" for that very reason in the book they edited on believer baptism. In my introductory chapter I defend the use of the term, noting that the concept of having a robust meaning for believer baptism is what matters more than the terminology we use to describe it. For a different approach than mine Christopher Moody opts to add to the meaning of ordinance, whereas I opt to qualify the meaning of sacrament.

Hi Benjamin,
I remember that thread from a while back. I think you would enjoy the book. Please pass along any comments you have about it if you do read it.

 

[Herald]

Sacraments by definition carry with them some salvific efficacy.

Tom, that is a purely subjective statement. The word sacrament is the English translation of the Latin sacramentum, which in turn is the Latin translation of the Greek word μυστήριον (musterion), or mystery. Donald McKim defines sacrament as, "An outward sign instituted by God to convey an inward or spiritual grace" (Dictionary of Theological Terms, 1996, WJK Press). Besides being used by Roman Catholics, Presbyterians of the 17th Century also used the word in the Westminster Confession of Faith. The Presbyterians did not believe that the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper conveyed grace in themselves, but rather conveyed "inward or spiritual grace" already possessed by the believer. 17th Century Baptists did not differ from Presbyterians on that issue, but they separated over the use of sacrament. Sacrament was too closely identified with Roman Catholicism, so ordinance entered the vernacular.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Here's why Jesus needed to be baptized:



Jesus' baptism was a sign to John that the prophesied Messiah to come, was here.

Agree with this