Baptismal regeneration

[Frank]

DHK:
1.You know enough to make an accurate assessment about me. Biased Opinion. Unsubstantiated by any real authority.
2. One of those assessements is you do not keep all the commandments. NO PROOF.Personal prejudice toward the truth of God;s word. UYo are blinded by you rown theology. Mat. 15:13,14. Which one do I not keep? And, How do you know? This is another pontification of yours. No substance or scriptural proof whatsoever.
3. God demands faithfulness,not flawlessness. Read Luke 1:5 many times.
4. James 2:10 is in referenece to the Old Law,not the Law of Faith. Read verse 11. See Romans 3:27, I Cor.9:21.
5. I never claimed perfection. This is your strawman and is a misrepresentation of the scripture. Read Luke 1:5. Read and study the meaning of faithful and blameless.
6. Your religion is a religion of works. I espouse being God's faithful workman. Eph. 2:10. Christianity is a system of living obedient, faith, not a dead faith that you advocate. James 2:17. This type faith NEVER SAVED ANYONE. James 2:14.
7, According to your own theology you have doomed yourself to Hell, for your religion is a religion of works you cannot keep. Jesus said, you must keep his commandments, John 14:15. And, his commandments are not grievous. I John 5:3. Jesus said the that a servant who works is blessed. Jesus said in Mat. 25:21, his Lord said unto him, Well DONE thou good and FAITHFUL servant. Thou hast been FAITHFUL over a few things I will Make thee a ruler over many things enter thou in to the joy of the Lord." John said In Rev. 14:13,"¶And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their LABOURS; and their WORKS do follow them." Jesus said in John 6:27,"LABOUR not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." In I Cor. 15:58, Paul said, "Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the WORK of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your LABOUR is not in vain in the Lord." The Apostles asked in John 6:28,"¶Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might WORK the WORKS of God?
29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK of God, that YE believe on him whom he hath sent."
Jesus said,in Rev. 2:5, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first WORKS; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Jesus said, in Rev. 2:26-28," And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28  And I will give him the morning star."
Jesus said in Rev. 2:23, "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your WORKS.
Jesus said,in Mat. 16:27," For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall REWARD EVERY MAN according to his WORKS." Paul said in ICor, 3:8,"  Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own LABOOUR." Men will give an account of their works." They will receive according to the way they have sown.In Gal. 6:7 the Bible says,"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8  For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:

5. I never claimed perfection.

Take a good look at your theology Frank:

1. "I never claimed perfection."
2. Therefore, you admit that you have sinned.
3. A sin is an offense against God.
4. It is breaking one of the commands of God.
5. You have broken, therefore, one of the commands of Christ.
6. By your own theology, you are doomed.
DHK

 

[Briguy]

Frank, To answer your first question look at these verses, which I think you previously posted.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

We are IN CHRIST when the Spirit, capital S, meaning Holy Spirit, baptizes us into Christ. 12:13 is a dry verse Frank. We are talking about God's Holy Spirit immersing us in Christ. When we come to faith, The Holy Spirit places us in Christ and we become a member of His body. It is an act done by the very person of the Holy Spirit not an act done by one man to another. Frank water Baptism is symbolic washing, in a way it is representative of the baptism that the Holy Spirit does in 12:13. The Holy Spirit washes us clean, not water. In the early church Baptism was even more important then now because it was an "outward proof" of whom you belonged, which opened a person up for persecution. I will look at your second question later. I know you were trying to set me up Frank and I am confident I know what you will say next but go ahead and respond anyway. Take care and have a great weekend!

In Christ who saved me by His grace,
Brian

 

[Frank]

Brian:
The Bible teaches Holy Spirit baptism was a PROMISE to be received, not a command to be obeyed. READ JOEL 2:27,28, John 14:26, 15:26, 16:13, Luke 24:49-51, Acts 2:1-4;8:18;11:15. ONLY JESUS COULD BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. Mat. 3:11. The baptism COMMANDED BY JESUS required HUMAN ADMINISTRATORS. Mat. 28:19. The baptism COMMANDED by JESUS was to last unitl the end of time. Mat 28:20. Holy Spirit baptism did not have human administrators nor last unitl the end of time. I Cor. 13:8-13. Eph.3,4. Therefore, I Cor. 12 is not a discussion of Holy Spirit baptism for salvation.

I Cor 12:13 says we are baptized by one spirit into one body. How are we baptized by the one spirit. SEE Acts 8:38,39, Eph. 5:26, Acts 22:16, Rev. 1:5. The spirit uses words to convert. James 1:18,21. The Holy Spirit delivers truth. John 16:13. The Holy Spirit works through the word. Hebrews 4:12. The word tells us to be baptized in water for unto the remnission of sins. Acts 2:38;8:38,39. Furthermore, if one is baptized IN the Holy Spirit to be saved, He DOES NOT NEED THE WORD. If one is saved by baptism In the Holy Spirit, he does not have to have FAITH, as faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17.Are you affirming one does not need to hear the word of God to be saved? Are affirming we do not need FAITH to be saved as it comes from God's word. Romans 10:17. Are you affirming man can be saved without the truth? James 1:18.

This is exactly the mess you are in with your interpretation of I Cor. 12:13,14.

Moreover, your interpretation is false because of the following:

1. Declarative statements that declare water baptism is in view for the alien sinner. I Pet. 3:20,21, John 3:3-5,Acts 8:12;38,Eph. 5:26.

2. Examples of the command to be baptized in water, Acts 10:47,48;8:38,39.

3. Implications from evidence. Acts 8:13-16. Simon was baptized but did not have the spirit. In Romans 6:3-5, the Bible teaches that a man baptized into Christ is raised out of that which he is baptized. If water, it is valid. If it is spirt baptism, the one baptized does not have the spirit and he is none of his. Romans 8.

4. The totality of the harmonious evidence. See all nine conversions as well as all other pasages related to baptism for unto the remission of sins. SEE Above 1-3. Coversions are found in Acts 2:38;8:13;30-40;10;47,48;16:14-16,30-33;18:8; 19:1-6;22:16. Cf. Gal. 3:27,27, Col. 2:12.

5. Baptism is the way in which a people are prepared for the Lord. Luke 1:17,76-78.

 

[Frank]

DHK:
You ignore the fact that God forgives all men of sin when they repent. James 5:14,15. Again, you do not understand the meaning of the words blameless and perfect. The Bible uses the word perfect and balmeless to mean COMPLETE OR FAITHFUL. This is exactly what the New Testament requires, not flawlessness but faithfulness. You are arguing a point with the Bible.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Frank and Brian,

Considering that you both use the Bible alone as the final authority in matters of doctrine, how can you both come to such a complete disagreement concerning baptism?

Is there a way the two of you will ever come to an agreement? Did Christ leave you two with a final authority other than the Bible to settle disputes such as this?

As a Catholic, you should know where I'm going with this. How long will it take before you two recognize that both of you need a Magisterium (e.g. the Apostles and the various presbyters in council at Jerusalem in Acts 15) to settle such Biblical disputes?

your brother,

Carson

[ January 17, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Bible-belted]

The only way it woud happen is if the anitchrist arrivd and deceived the elect. If that were possible.

But seriously, disagreement is not a sign of inadequacy of the rule of faith but of thse who apply it.

The fact that there are so many disgareements within RCism can of course be brought up.

As I am a Christian you can probably tell where I am going with this. When will you realise that you need to stop using double standard type arguments aginst the Truth?

 

[Sularis]

Carson when will you realize that some people on this board are equivalent to Magisterium or whatever foolishness the Catholic church has come up with.

There are too many flaws within the Catholic church that cause raging debate within that brother church for anyone to come from their midst and point at us Baptists arguing and make remarks saying what we need or dont need

But back to the point at hand

Is water Baptism a work
If it is it has not saving or regenerative powers

If it is not
Then you still have to prove that the Baptism of the Spirit does not have any saving or renegerative powers

I look at Acts 18 as a great proof that water baptism has no salvatory powers - as Apollo spoke words of the Lord - and Paul following called them disciples they who were baptized of water - the baptism of John

In fact I even make a cry out unto the surrounding cultures of the time that water Baptism was a well known thing - being used in some form or another as part of initiatory rites in some religions.

if you take water baptism out of salvation do you lose the focus on Christ. Or do you gain a more exclusive focus - I hear over and over salvation by faith alone - but if yer not baptized that faith dont count - Its either faith ALONE - faith and works gets us salvation.

For me (SIN-GRACE)-CHOICE = FAITH = SALVATION
well close enough

Our sin overwhelms us preventing us from choosing God - Id put brackets around choosing. but lets continue. So we are depraved until Gods grace or call comes to us overwhelms and abounds over our sin. Heres where is gets tricky some people resist and quench the Spirit - Others put up a token resistance, but God gets them anyways, and others do not resist at all. There is never a charging headlong rush to accept God. We cant cross that bridge, we lack the power - but Gods grace shows us He can, and all we have to do is choose to not resist - The problem with the anti-free-willers is that they think the free-willers rip the loads of sin off of their own shoulders and fly across a bottomless pit, and wrap the arms of God around themselves. Thats not it

Its the realization of total ability, and total need, that simply allows them to step off their side in faith, knowing God will catch them, lift them up and all the while be holding them to His heart

Ive been trying to think of when the disciples were baptized - and the only baptism I can see are two possible examples - Christ washing their feet - He did this to Judas Iscariot as well - or at Pentecost!

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Latreia,

You wrote, "Disagreement is not a sign of inadequacy of the rule of faith but of thse who apply it."

I'm not denying that Scripture serves as the rule of faith. I am affirming that the Bible, which serves as such a canon for the Christian faith, requires a Magisterium in concert with it - as it itself attests to in Acts 15.

The inadequacy of "those who apply it" is what necessitates such a teaching body of bishops.

The fact that there are so many disgareements within RCism can of course be brought up.

Would you mind presenting a few of those disagreements?

Carson when will you realize that some people on this board are equivalent to Magisterium or whatever foolishness the Catholic church has come up with.

Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.

Is water Baptism a work? If it is it has not saving or regenerative powers

Is faith a work? If it is, it has not saving or regenerative powers.

I look at Acts 18 as a great proof that water baptism has no salvatory powers

I look at Acts 19 as a great proof that water baptism does have salvatory powers because it demonstrates that it is in our Christian baptism that we receive the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit descended upon Jesus when he was baptized in the river Jordan.

Suppose you find Christian disciples in a town you're passing through and you ask them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And the disciples reply, "No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."

What would your next question be? Perhaps it would be "Did you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour?".

Paul's reply involved what type of baptism the disciples received, "Into what then were you baptized?"

The disciples answered, "Into John's baptism."

And Paul gives a small catechesis, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus."

And what happens next? Do the disciples simply "receive Jesus Christ into their hearts as their personal Lord and Saviour"?

Let's see what the Scripture records, "On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Ive been trying to think of when the disciples were baptized - and the only baptism I can see are two possible examples - Christ washing their feet - He did this to Judas Iscariot as well - or at Pentecost!

Are you suggesting that for something to have occurred historically, it must be recorded in Scripture?

God bless,

Carson

"Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor. Your faith, your helmet. Your love, your spear. Your patient endurance, your panoply" (Ignatius; Letter to Polycarp 6; 110 AD).

[ January 17, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Bible-belted]

Carson,

As I am sure you aware, epistomologically, the insertion fo a magisterium (which, contra your assertion, is not taught in Acts 15) only poushes the question you raise back one step. A person may misunderstand the magisterium as easily as they do the Bible. More easily in fact since: 1) the Magisterium is not inspired and the Bible is 2) We know the boundaries of the Bible, the same cannot be said of the magisterium 3) Since it adds something mroe to be exegeted by the individual, it adds complexity.

You are aware of the disagreements, they have been listed on these boards often. I see no need to go into detail, that being the case. You are I am sure aware of them since you have likely had to try to defend them.

The rest of your post does not deal with my comments, though your post leaves that impression. May I request that when you switch addressees you make that clear in your posts.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Latreia,

You wrote, "the Magisterium is not inspired and the Bible is"

I recognize this fact. The Holy Spirit inspires Scripture and protects the Magisterium.

We know the boundaries of the Bible, the same cannot be said of the magisterium

We do know the boundaries of the Magisterium. The Magisterium's boundaries are all bishops in union with the successor of St. Peter. That is what constitutes the Magisterium - just as the 72 books of the Bible constitute what is Scripture.

You are aware of the disagreements, they have been listed on these boards often. I see no need to go into detail, that being the case.

I'm not asking you to go into detail. I'm asking you to list some examples. Will you?

God bless,

Carson

 

[Frank]

Hey Carson:
The fact that Brian denies the truth of the Bible in this matter does not discredit the truth neither does it necessitate the need for a man made board to rule in matters of faith. The Catholics have tried this for years and they are as divided as ever. Your magistetium cannot get God's law of marriage correct why? I Tim. 3:1-11, Titus 1:4-9. It is just as simple as it was in the days of Christ. Some men prefer their theology over the truth. Read Mat.15,23. What we need are men who use the static standard of truth, the New Testament, as their only guide in matters of faith.

Furthermore, if you have read this thread, and I really believe you have, the arguments follow the typical denominational pattern. Consider the following:
1. Personal experience and emotional appeal to justify theology. This is not a truthful guide for truth. See Acts 8,9,Acts 23:1, Jer. 10:23, Is.55:6-9.
2. Using one scripture at the exclusion of others on a subject buttresss a false position. See Thread. Scriptures for salvation using only faith or belief.
3. Ignoring the toaltiy of evidence on the subject. SEE Thread. The nine conversions are ignored.
4. Failure to harmonize all scripture on the subject at hand. See Thread. The conversions of the Bible are not harmonized.
5. Failure to use context to understand the meaning of words. See Thread. Eis, Epi. Mat. 3:11, Acts 2:38, Mat. 26:28 Mat. 12:41.
6. Ignoring grammatical constructs of sentence structure. SEE Mark 16:16. The copulative conjunction AND which links two in one as equals.
7. Ignoring or dismissing arguments from scripture without rebuttal with valid evidence addressing the argument itself.

Carson, as a student of scripture, I am sure you understand the principles of interpretation. Language works in three and only three ways, declarativce statement, approved example, implication from the totality of the evidence.

It is quit strange we understand the necessity of properly interpreting the tax code to avoid going to jail for fraud or evasion; but it is not important in getting the New testament correct in order to go to heaven and avoid hell.Mat. 7:21, Mat. 25:41.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Frank,

You wrote, "The fact that Brian denies the truth of the Bible in this matter

Brian would say the same exact thing concerning you. It isn't a question of your conviction that you're correct. It's a question of Christian unity.

The Catholics have tried this for years and they are as divided as ever.

Please, if you would, demonstrate on what matters of faith and doctrine that Catholics are so divided as to worship apart from one another in separate buildings.

What we need are men who use the static standard of truth, the New Testament, as their only guide in matters of faith.

I agree that the Bible is our standard, but I do not agree that it is our only guide. The very first Christians were without a New Testament, and they were able to be guided by their bishops, without NT Scripture and with the Scripture of the Old Testament.

For you to demand that the New Testament be the Christian's only guide in matters of faith is to contradict the paradigm of all of Christianity in ever place for the first 20 years of its conception. That's a hefty consideration that, if you are going to evangelize me, you must tackle first.

Blessings,

Carson

[ January 18, 2003, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Bible-belted]

Actually Catson, the Spirit is gien to the Body, not the Magisterium. Yours is an Old Testament model.

Actually you don't know the boundaries of your magisterium. You have not gien the boudaries, only a definition. You cannot tell me there is a list (inspired or otherwise) of those in the magisterium.

IOW I know my canon. You don't.

Carson, no I will not both3r to list them, for, as I said, you knwo of them. If I ist them you will simply attempt to explain them away, something you will not alow portestants to do with their disagreements.

IOW, you are going to be held to the same standard you try to hold others to.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Latreia,

You wrote, "Actually Catson, [sic] the Spirit is gien [sic] to the Body, not the Magisterium. Yours is an Old Testament model."

I would contend that the Holy Spirit is given to the entire Church, which includes the Magisterium as part of the Body of Christ. The Spirit gives various charisms to various members for the sake of the Church. The gift of inspiration was given to the Biblical writers. The gift of protection is given to the successor of St. Peter and those bishops teaching in union with him.

I will conclude that these "disagreements within RCism" are nonexistant, considering the fact that you refuse to list them. The burden of proof is on you, Latreia. If you don't back up what you assert, then it is only reasonable to conclude that your assertion lacks substance until you do so.

God bless,

Carson

[ January 18, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Bible-belted]

Carson,

You make me laugh with your "sic" behaviour. It says a lot.

It is not at all surprising that you mention a charism not mentioned in the Bible as being givento teh Magisterium. The infallibility is truly a fabrication; that's why it isn't in the Bible.

You are utterly predictable with your simplt "you won't list them so I won't admit they exist", as if you and I don't both know what they are. Your "reasonable conclusion" is simply a matter of apologetic convenience for you. In fact another reasonable conclusion, and the true conclusion, is that I won't bother going over ground we are both familiar with. You've been around the bush a few times Carson; you know what the issues are. To imply that you don't know what I am talking about, and to act as if you don't, is simply disengenuous.

Again, I give you the last word.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Latreia,

You wrote, "To imply that you don't know what I am talking about, and to act as if you don't, is simply disengenuous."

I, honestly, do not know what you are talking about, and I wish that you would simply state the issues.

Your biting sarcasm, ad hominem accusations, display of bad will, and lack of charity continue to turn both me and others off. I do wish you would be a bit more friendly and would give others the benefit of the doubt. It would make the dialogue a more pleasant process and we would have a better chance of understanding one another as the brothers in Christ that we are.

Bless you,

Carson

 

[Frank]

Carson:
In response to your last post, the Bible teaches the following:
1. There is no magisterium as you speak of in the New Testament. The congregations of the Lord's church are autonmous. Each congregation is organized with elders and deacon serving the body as per I Tim. 3:1-11,Titus 1:4-9.
2. The Bible teaches that the church continued steadfastly in the APOSTLES doctrine, and fellowship,and in the breakng of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:42;20:7. It was first orally proclaimed and then; it was written for permanence. II Tim. 1:13, II Thes. 2;15, Eph. 3:1-4.The word of God is the guide. It is a pattern or form of teaching we are to follow. Romans 6:17,18.
These proclamations were authorized and authenticated by the miraculous power promised to the APOSTLES and also received by the laying on of their hands.John 14:26,15:26, 16:13. Mark 16:17-20,Acts 8:18. One who claimed to speak the will of the Lord by authority MUST BE ABLE TO CONFIRM WITH THE MIRACULOUS. II Cor. 12:12. Some men claim they speak by the authority of God in matters of faith but are really liars. SEE REV. 2:2. The inspired writings were delivered and read to other congreagations. Col. 4:16, I Thes. 5:27.
3. The inspired APOSTLE could proclaim the whole or all the counsel of God. Paul said he did exactly this. Acts 20:27. One who proclaims the complete will of God most certainly can do the same by writing it down. II Tim. 3:16,17,Jude 3, I Cor. 14:37. In fact,Jesus declared that revelation be written down. Rev.1: 11. Jesus directed John to WRITE THE THINGS THOU HAST SEEN IN A BOOK.

Finally, new revelation was to cease when the completed new testament had been delivered. I Cor. 13:8-13, Eph. 4:11-16.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Frank,

You wrote, "There is no magisterium as you speak of in the New Testament. The congregations of the Lord's church are autonmous."

Then can you explain how the apostles and presbyteroi came together in council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 to produce a decree that was sent out to the Gentile Churches?

Each congregation is organized with elders and deacon serving the body as per I Tim. 3:1-11,Titus 1:4-9.

Just like the Catholic Church today.

2. The Bible teaches that the church continued steadfastly in the APOSTLES doctrine, and fellowship,and in the breakng of bread, and in prayers.

Very good.

1. Teaching - Creed
2. Breaking of the Bread - Sacrament & Liturgy
3. Fellowship - Life of Charity
4. Prayers - Christian Prayer

I encourage you to take a moment and look at how the Catechism of the Catholic Church is structured.

It was first orally proclaimed and then; it was written for permanence.

And, it continued to be orally proclaimed. Never did the written word fully replace the spoken word. The New Testament never testifies to this extra-Testamental belief that you have.

The word of God is the guide. It is a pattern or form of teaching we are to follow.

Amen.

In fact,Jesus declared that revelation be written down. Rev. 1:11.

But, he didn't say that all was to be written down, just John's vision.

God bless!

Carson

 

[Frank]

Carson:
My previous post answers your assertion. Your magisterium has no credentials by which to make their unscriptural pontifications.

1. They do not confirm the word with signs. Jesus required this when speaking by his authority. Mat.16:17-20. Those who spoke and wrote by the authority of Christ must be able to prove it!. II Cor. 12:12. The miraculous proof was to be manifested in the presence of UNBELIVERS, as the miraculous was to produce faith. John 20:30,31;John 5,9,11. If these things were to continue, and they have not, Jesus would have said in John 20:30 just wait around you will see a miracle. He did not say this. He said that these things were written that you might believe. The power to prove one spoke by the authority of Christ could be received by the laying on of the apostles hands.Acts 8:18. The recipient of the gift could not pass the gift to another. SEE Acts 8:12-18.

Therefore,the magisterium fails the test of revelation of truth in three areas. One, They are not one of the 12. Two, They have not had hands laid on them by one of the 12. Three, they do not have the miraculous credentials to proclaiim inspired revelation by the authority of Christ. Therefore, the magisterium speaks their uninspired opinions and attempts to bind their positions on others without the authority of Christ. Rev. 2:2.

If you claim, as I think you will to defend your theology,the credentials have changed. Who changed it? Moreover, who authorized the change? I will address Acts 15 in my next post.