Baptismal regeneration

[Carson Weber]

Hi Brian,

The Greek word for justify is "dikaioo".

Strong's defines this as "to render righteous or such he ought to be; to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be".

Now, the question isn't whether Christ makes us righteous or not. The question is how does Christ make us righteous? Does he really make us righteous (ontologically)? Or does he make us appear to be righteous while we really aren't (legally)?

I continue to affirm what the Bible affirms: that we are justified by Christ in us who makes us righteous through the power of the Holy Spirit, which is a process known as sanctification.

As Paul says in Romans 6..

"For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection. We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin. For a dead person has been dikaioo from sin For a dead person has been absolved from sin. If then, we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him."

Did you catch that? Paul considers our dying to sin (sanctification) as our justification.

Justified, in Christ,

Carson

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carson, What version of the Bible did you use?
Heres the KJV of Romans:

5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:


Carson, perhaps we should stick to the KJV here. Please re-evaluate the verses in the KJV and tell me if you still think it supports your positon. I will be reading it more closely as well.

Also, read the following verses from Romans 5 and compare with the verse from James I used in my other post and let me know what you think.

Romans 5:
[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith justifies us to God
Works (prove) show us justified before men

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Carson Weber]

Carson, perhaps we should stick to the KJV here. Please re-evaluate the verses in the KJV and tell me if you still think it supports your positon. I will be reading it more closely as well.

Of course it supports sanctification as justification. Paul is speaking of our sanctification as the process of our justification. The Greek dikaioo remains where the KJV translates it as "freed".

Our being freed from sin - our sanctification is our being justified from sin. And how do we go about this? By faith.

Augustine summarizes this beautifully in his On the Spirit and the Letter (paragraph 50):

“ ‘But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. And why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works.’ (Rom 9:31-32) – in other words, working it out as it were by themselves, not believing that it is God who works within them … For what he said ‘not by faith, but as it were by works’ (Rom 9:32) he most clearly explained in the following words, ‘they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.’ (Rom 10:3-4) Then are we still in doubt what are those works of the law by which a man is not justified? They are those, which he believes to be his own works, as it were, without the help and gift of God, which is ‘by the faith of Jesus Christ.’ … This then is exactly what Paul means by ‘works’ that do not justify: he means that they attribute the keeping of God’s good and holy commandments, such as ‘thou shall not covet’ to themselves; but in reality, in order for man to keep them, God must work in him through faith in Jesus Christ, who is ‘the end [telos] of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.’ (Rom 10:4). That is to say, everyone who is incorporated into Him and made a member of His body, is able, by His giving the increase within, to do works of righteousness.”

Works (prove) show us justified before men

Are you still trying to insert "before men" in James 2? It's really amazing & utterly confounding for me to see you nullify Scripture like that.

James, in no way whatsoever, has justification before men in mind. That is an absolutely contradictory insertion on your part to make Scripture agree with your Sola Fide soteriology.

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carson, Hope you are well this fine day. I think in some ways we are talking by eachother. When talking justification it can be looked at from God's eyes and Mans eyes. From God's perspective we are justified (Freed from Sin, capital "S") when we by faith trust in the shed blood of Christ to wash us clean. From Man's eyes, that is the world in which we live, we are Justified (proved rightous) by our works. That is why I posted this verse.

James 2:18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Carson, who is the "thee" here? It surely is not God. We show our faith, by our works, to the world. God sees all, and knows all, we do not have to show him our faith by our works, he already KNOWS our faith.

OK, now for a twist. We know from John 17 that we are a gift to Jesus from God. At what point does God give us to Jesus. The time of faith? after a certain work? when??

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Carson Weber]

Brian,

Verse 20 shows that the justification spoken of is justification before God, and this fact is "shown" to man:

"Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?"

This "justified by works" pertains to Abraham's justification before God. How do I know? The next verse:

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God."

The Scripture that was fulfilled was about Abraham's relationship with God. This same verse is quoted by Paul in Romans to show Abraham's justification before God.

At what point does God give us to Jesus. The time of faith? after a certain work? when?

"We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." (Rom 6:4)

When our natural faith is joined to the water and the Spirit ("the washing of water with the word" Eph 5:26), we are united with Christ and are given the supernatural capacity to continually receive his transforming life and have it transform us through the power of the Holy Spirit by living in the three supernatural theological virtues of Faith, Hope, and Love.

in Christ,

Carson

 

[Briguy]

Hey Carson,
You quoted: "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God."

This is my point. Abraham's belief (faith) brought him into right standing with God. God knew what Abraham would do before he told him to do it so it wasn't like God was waiting on pins and needles to see if Abraham would obey and kill Issac. No, but when I first heard that story I was waiting nervously to see what Abraham would do. In that day certainly his family and friends would have been watching to see what Abraham would do. When he obeyed, they, people around him and us to this day actually can say that he "proved" himself righteous by his works. God already knew. His Obedience is a lesson to us, faith is what justified him to God. Can you see that or no? Sorry if I just am not making that clear.

Now, you said that when a person is Batized into Christ is when God gives them to Christ. OK, so if the Baptized infant never seeks after God and is an atheist hi whole life, he was God's gift but either God took him back or Jesus didn't accept the gift right? Do you believe a perfect God would give a gift to his perfect Son and then take the gift away? Or do you believe a perfect Son would give back a gift from his perfect Father? Read John 17, especially the end part that is directed to us, not the disciples and then see what you think. Thanks!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Brian,

In that day certainly his family and friends would have been watching to see what Abraham would do. When he obeyed, they, people around him and us to this day actually can say that he "proved" himself righteous by his works.

Hmm.. if memory serves, no one was around but Abraham and Isaac.

... and, God.

if the Baptized infant never seeks after God and is an atheist hi whole life, he was God's gift but either God took him back or Jesus didn't accept the gift right?

The person rejected the gift.

Do you believe a perfect God would give a gift to his perfect Son and then take the gift away?

I believe the gift in the above situation isn't an object, but a person with a free will.

The real gift is Christ, and he is given to us by the Father, and we can either accept or reject Him.

in Christ,

Carson

 

[Briguy]

Hi Carson

,

You said that the real gift is Christ. It is very true that Christ is a gift to us. That however is not what I am talking about. Look at John 17:24

24] Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

God gave "saved people" to Jesus. If I am saved and if you are saved we are a gift from the Father to the Son. This is different then what you are talking about. So the question begs to be answered. If we are given from God to Jesus at baptism, doesn't that mean that for the millions who have been baptized and never really believed that the gift from God to Jesus was not a "good gift" or are you saying Carson that Jesus rejected millions of portions of the Fathers gift? or---- are we given as the gift at a different time. Now here is a sticky wicket and would be a different topic so I will not let us get side tracked. Baptism does not work here Carson because God who is perfect can only give a perfect gift.

On Abraham, if you read the story there were men that he brought with watching from a distance and he went back afterward and it talks about all kinds of people he would have told. It is unrealistic to think that he didn't share the story with everyone around him. Besides "we" as the Bible readers are eye witnesses as well and his faith is used in scripture as an example to us all.

Looking forward to your reply.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

""BUMP""

Carson, I bumped this for you because I know you would not want people to think you gave up on this one.

Unless of course, you gave up on this one------
In that case

""I WIN""

Your brother,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

"Bump"

 

[Briguy]

"Bump"

Carson, I know you would not purposely leave me hanging. You are busy and can't respond to everything. If you want to end this discussion, please indicate so, so I can stop checking it and hoping you do respond. Thanks much and I hope you are well.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

""BUMP""

 

[Briguy]

Carson, You have posted on other threads but keep forgetting this one. Remember just a "I am done" will do. Thanks

-Brian

 

[Briguy]

"Bump"

Hey Carson, Anybody out there (echo----),
ah-- anybody --please-- I'm getting scared here guys,-- hey, quit joking around,---This is wierd guys,--answer-- please-- somebody-- Maybe I'm alone,-- Did I miss the rapture?--

-Brian

 

[g_1933]

I am thankful that it is Christ that holds on to me!

G

 

[Briguy]

"BummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmP"

 

[Briguy]

BUMPPPPPPPPPPPPP

Brother Curtis, my moderating friend, What is your thought on why Carson hasn't responded on this thread. Is it possible he has just missed it that many times? I have asked him to just say he is done with it but he has not.

Carson, If you do read this, you know that I rspect you and your Bible knowledge and your love for Jesus.

Please end my misery here.

In Our Lord,
Brian

 

[Briguy]

BBBBBBUUUUUUMMMMMMPPPPPP,

Now even the moderators are ignoring me, I must be in the, TWLIGHTS ZONE do do do do do do do

--Brian, at least thats who I think I am

 

[Frank]

Brian:
Maybe Carson is practicing the Law of Silence.

 

[Briguy]

Frank, you may be right. He certainly is good at keeping that portion of the LAW.

--Brian