Baptismal regeneration

[PreachTony]

PreachTony,I could go on and on and on here about Protestants who believe this or that doctrine vs. Protestants who do not believe this or that doctrine. But, suffice it to say, the thousands upon thousands of Protestant churches and denominations exist, in large measure, because of doctrinal differences. But how can that be if their beliefs all come from the Bible? How can all of these differing beliefs, all of these contradictory doctrines, all be coming from the one and same Bible? Well, the answer is, they can’t be. After all, God is not a God of contradiction. Truth cannot contradict truth. Which means, from a purely logical standpoint, that there is, at most - at most! - one Protestant denomination or church that is true. There is, at most, one Protestant denomination or church that could, theoretically, have a completely true Bible-based theological system.

If you are going to try to slam the non-Catholic denominations for not having a "true Bible-based theological system," then you need to examine that glass house you live in called the Catholic church. You don't have a true Bible-based system either, you know? The supposed "universal, true church" has done so much that was anti-scriptural that it should make you sick.

I mean think about it - all these pastors in all these denominations and non-denominational churches - all of them claim to get their beliefs and teachings straight from the Bible. Yet, the beliefs of this denomination conflict with the beliefs of that denomination. The doctrines taught by this pastor conflict with the doctrines taught by that pastor, often even within the same denomination. Which has to mean there is, among Protestantism, at best only one Protestant denomination, or even just one Protestant church within or without a particular denomination, that can have a completely Bible-based theological system. Everyone else who disagrees with that denomination, or that particular church, has to be in error on one or more of its doctrines, and error cannot come from the Bible. If one church - just one - gets it completely right, then every other church has to be wrong at least some of the time. That is just basic logic.

Most of us non-Catholics believe in the autonomy of the local church. We don't sit in ecumenical council with one another. That might be bad or good, depending on your point of view. But we are not going to hold to your Catholic traditions, which seemingly make the congregants bow to ritualistic, ceremonial exercises. We actually admit that we are churches made up of corrupted, fallible men and women. We know that we are not always going to get it right. We do our best to lean on the Holy Ghost and seek guidance from the throne of God. We admit that our church leaders remain men, sinners saved by grace, even in exercise of their office. We would never deign to say that someone acting in capacity of the church somehow becomes infallible.

So, theoretically, there is at most one Protestant denomination, or one Protestant church, that does not teach at least some error. All the other churches and denominations have to teach at least some error. There is no way around that. None. However, the fact of the matter is, that the chance of having even one Protestant church or denomination with a completely error-free theological system is pretty much zero. I say that because every Protestant that I’ve ever come across claims that no man is infallible. They all claim that no man is able to infallibly interpret the Bible and no man is able to infallibly teach on faith and morals. (This is, essentially, a reaction to Catholic teaching on the infallibility of the Pope.) Which means there is not a single Protestant minister who is infallible, you even wrote that, so there is not a single Protestant minister who can be guaranteed to get it right every single time they teach and preach on the Bible. (If I were a Protestant minister, that thought would scare the bejeebees out of me.)

It would scare you to admit that we are sinful and in need of God's grace? Have not all sinned and come short of the glory of God?

 

[lakeside]

Preach Tony too bad you hate the Traditions of God. you do realize that Jesus bowed and smelled the smoke of incense, observed ritual rites while attending His synagogue. The only One True Church that Jesus formed which was formed on the mostly Jewish apostles was the completion/ fulfillment of Judaism, even if the Jews do not accept Jesus as their conquering savior or His Church

 

[PreachTony]

Preach Tony too bad you hate the Traditions of God. you do realize that Jesus bowed and smelled the smoke of incense, observed ritual rites while attending His synagogue. The only One True Church that Jesus formed which was formed on the mostly Jewish apostles was the completion/ fulfillment of Judaism, even if the Jews do not accept Jesus as their conquering savior or His Church

More slandering of your opposition in a debate. Classy. :applause:

 

[lakeside]

Well you did write of a distain for Catholic Traditions. You did write: " But we are not going to hold to your Catholic traditions, which seemingly make the congregants bow to ritualistic, ceremonial exercises."

 

[PreachTony]

Well you did write of a distain for Catholic Traditions. You did write: " But we are not going to hold to your Catholic traditions, which seemingly make the congregants bow to ritualistic, ceremonial exercises."

The only traditions I clearly see laid out by the New Testament are:

1. Baptism - Only for those who believe and repent of their sins. No recorded instance of any infant being baptized, or of God honoring the testimony of one person as substitutionary for another person, ergo a parent cannot make a profession of faith for a newborn, or for any other person. Consider the blind man Jesus healed by placing mud on his eyes and telling him to wash. The Pharisees sought out his parents to make accounting for him, and his parents said, and I paraphrase, 'He is old enough; ask him yourself."

2. Foot-washing (or Feet-washing) - Found in John 13:

12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

No saving grace found here. It is an object lesson in humility from the Lord. It shows us that we are to be willing servants one to another, and humble enough to wash our brother's feet.

3. Communion - A symbolic partaking of the Last Supper, performed in memory of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice in our place.

25 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

Not a salvific event. Performed by believers only, and performed only after careful examination of oneself in accordance with verse 28 above. Paul also records the phrase "as oft as ye ____." In other words, however often you perform Communion, you should do it in remembrance of Christ. If you do it everyday, it should be in remembrance. Same for once a year. Same if you never partake in it.

 

[DHK]

Your tactics are no different than those of an atheist I engaged a few weeks ago. He argued that it is the Catholic belief that you can do whatever you want to anyone, and get complete forgiveness and a clean conscience by just talking to a priest (misunderstanding and misrepresenting Confession). I demonstrated, from the Church's own documents on the Sacrament of Confession, that this simply wasn't true. But his mind was made up, and he wasn't to be confused by the facts. He looked at those same documents, and read them to mean exactly what he had originally asserted, even though that was plainly not the case. In other words, it didn't matter what evidence was provided or demonstrations were made. Anything that supported his position would be paraded, and anything that did not would be twisted, discredited or ignored. Once we have an entrenched position on a matter, and are unwilling to even be open to the possibility that I might be wrong, or that someone else in the world might know something that I don't, this is often what happens.

The difference between your atheist and me is: I have been there and done that. The I was saved by the Holy Spirit of God (which the RCC is devoid of). I know what the RCC teach both from study and from experience. I know what the Bible teaches both from study and experience. I know also that the two can never be reconciled. They are at polar opposites of each other.

You can't reconcile Hinduism and Biblical Christianity, and,
You can't reconcile Catholicism and Biblical Christianity.
Both, the RCC and Hinduism are world religions, based on works, that have nothing in common with Biblical Christianity.

Thus my challenge:
Show me the way of salvation via the RCC, and then back it up with the Bible. It can't be done except through a whole lot of Scripture twisting. It can't be done using the Scripture honestly and rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[lakeside]

DHK, good question, I often ask myself is my eternal salvation in heaven with God secured? Yes it is, as long as I do not separate myself from God through sin. As I’m sure you know,{ 1 John 5:16 } talks about the “sin unto death,” because it is sin that kills the soul…sin that separates us from Jesus Christ Who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. So, as long as I do not commit a sin unto death – or what we Catholics would call a “mortal” sin – then, yes, my salvation with God is secured.

Now, you may ask, how exactly is it that we can separate ourselves from Christ? Well, we separate ourselves from Christ by, in essence, not following His teachings. By not doing what He has told us we must do, or doing what He has told us we must not do. For example, Jesus tells us in{ Matt 6} that in order to have our sins forgiven, we must forgive the sins of others. If we don’t, then our sins are not forgiven. Can we get into Heaven if our sins are not forgiven? No, we can’t. So, we must forgive the sins of others in order to get into heaven, in order to not separate ourselves from Christ – that is a plain truth of Scripture. We must also care for our families as we are able. This is very clear in{ 1 Tim 5:8 } where we are told that anyone who does not provide for his family has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Someone who is worse than an unbeliever can’t get into Heaven, can they? They have separated themselves from Christ.

Then in {John 6,} Jesus tells us that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us. So, can we be saved if we have no life in us? if we do not eat His flesh and drink His blood, will we get to Heaven? We also have to love our brother. It says so plainly in { 1 John 4:20 }. We also have to seek for glory and honor and immortality by patience in well–doing, according to { Rom 2:6–7 }, in order to have eternal life rendered unto us.

In { Heb 6:4–6 }, it t ells us we can separate ourselves from Christ through apostasy. In { Rom 11:22} it says we will be cut off from Christ if we do not continue in God’s kindness. And, in { John 15:1–6 }, it tells us that we will be cut off from the vine which is Christ if we do not produce good fruit.

I could go on with many other examples, but how did this [eternal salvation] come about? By the grace of God. Because it is by the grace of God that we are born again through Christ – which is what occurs through Baptism. As Jesus tells us in { John 3:3–5 }, we must be born again of water and the Spirit (Baptism). Without this, He says, no one may enter the Kingdom of Heaven. As it says in { Acts 2:38 }, through Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit and our sins are forgiven. God freely gives us His grace – grace merited for us by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ – through Baptism. His grace washes us free of sin and brings us into covenant with Him {Titus 2:4–7}. And it is by faith that we turn to Baptism to receive the promise of Christ – redemption unto eternal salvation{Rom 2:25}. Because without faith, it is impossible to please God {Heb 11:6}. And, this is not our doing, “lest any man should boast” {Eph 2:8–9}, it is a completely gratuitous act of God on our behalf.

So, God freely saves us by His grace; however, to reiterate what was said above, in order to avoid separation from Christ, we must follow Him by denying ourselves and picking up our cross daily {Luke 9:23}. Furthermore, we must do His will in order to be saved{Matt 7:21]. I guess a good one verse summary of the Catholic belief in salvation is this: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love,” {Gal 5:6}

 

[DHK]

DHK, good question, I often ask myself is my eternal salvation in heaven with God secured? Yes it is, as long as I do not separate myself from God through sin. As I’m sure you know,{ 1 John 5:16 } talks about the “sin unto death,” because it is sin that kills the soul…sin that separates us from Jesus Christ Who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. So, as long as I do not commit a sin unto death – or what we Catholics would call a “mortal” sin – then, yes, my salvation with God is secured.

There is no such thing as a mortal sin. That is one of the deceptions of the Catholic Church. Sin is sin. All sin is "mortal."
1John 3:4 states that sin is breaking the law. "It is a transgression of the law."
Whether you lie, speed, or murder, you have broken the law. You have sinned. It is all the same in God's sight. You have come short of his standard of holiness. You have failed his standard of perfection. What man may think is the least of all sins is still great in God's eyes and would still require the death of Christ on the cross, the shedding of His blood. Thus all sin is great. There is no such thing as a little sin.
Only the consequences of sin vary, not the nature of sin.

When I was saved, God forgave me of all my sin: past, present and future.
Rom.8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
"As far as the east is from the west so far has he removed my sin."
"He has buried them in the deepest sea."
"He remembers them no more."
"He has hidden them behind his back."

I am washed or cleansed by the blood of Christ (1John 1:7).
When God looks down upon me, he sees not me but the righteousness of Christ clothed upon me, for he has taken my sin away and given me a cloak of righteousness instead.
Rom.5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

I know for certain, beyond any shadow of a doubt, if I were to die right now I would go straight to heaven. It is Christ that holds my salvation. I did not earn it and never could possibly earn it. He paid the penalty that I could not pay. He has given me eternal life and he will never take away that gift. Eternal, by definition, cannot become "temporary."

You don't know what a sin unto death is. You don't understand that passage. But if you use it in the way that you do, you will never make it to heaven, for no one could be that sinless. Just one evil thought, one thoughtless word, one vain imagination, etc., could be a sin unto death as far as God is concerned. Any sin will do. He is a holy God. He is the one who decides what that sin may be--not the magesterium, the pope or priest, or any religion--But God Himself decides.
In Acts 5, Annanias and Sapphira were killed for lying. In the grander scheme of the things they simply wanted to be like someone else (hypocrisy)--like Barnabas--looking like someone spiritual when they weren't. They didn't tell the truth about what they were doing and God killed them.
In 1Cor.11, the Corinthians were abusing the Lord's Table. They were not coming to it in the right attitude, but rather carelessly, even when they were drunk and had over-eaten. God killed some of them for such a careless attitude. (1Cor.11:30).
--But this refers to Christians and has nothing to do with salvation. God's judgment does not send believers to hell.

Now, you may ask, how exactly is it that we can separate ourselves from Christ? Well, we separate ourselves from Christ by, in essence, not following His teachings. By not doing what He has told us we must do, or doing what He has told us we must not do. For example, Jesus tells us in{ Matt 6} that in order to have our sins forgiven, we must forgive the sins of others. If we don’t, then our sins are not forgiven. Can we get into Heaven if our sins are not forgiven? No, we can’t.

All of this is not true. It only proves what I have said before--your religion is no better than Hinduism which also says you must get to "heaven" by your good works. That is not what Christianity teaches.
Works are good, but they do not get you to heaven. Their neglect do not send you to hell. Salvation is not dependent on what you do or don't do.

When Jesus cried out: "It is finished," that meant that the work of salvation was finished. There is nothing that mankind can do to add what Christ has already done.
Isaiah 64:6 states that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. They are putrid and filthy in the sight of God. He doesn't accept them. The only work God did accept in the realm of salvation was the work that Christ paid in salvation. The works of men he does not accept at all.
The works of Cain were rejected and thus Cain also was rejected. Good works are not accepted by God.

So, we must forgive the sins of others in order to get into heaven, in order to not separate ourselves from Christ – that is a plain truth of Scripture.

That is a heresy not found in Scripture.
The Scripture says:
"For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph.2:8,9).

We must also care for our families as we are able. This is very clear in{ 1 Tim 5:8 } where we are told that anyone who does not provide for his family has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Someone who is worse than an unbeliever can’t get into Heaven, can they? They have separated themselves from Christ.

That is a comparison, but it is not speaking of entrance into heaven.
Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me."
It is not by doing good, but coming only through Christ that one can gain entrance into heaven. Salvation is in Christ alone.

Then in {John 6,} Jesus tells us that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, or we have no life in us. So, can we be saved if we have no life in us? if we do not eat His flesh and drink His blood, will we get to Heaven?

Again, that is not a requirement for heaven.
"He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the son of God hath not life."
It is as simple as that. Have you trusted Christ as Lord and Savior of your life? If so when and where?

We also have to love our brother. It says so plainly in { 1 John 4:20 }. We also have to seek for glory and honor and immortality by patience in well–doing, according to { Rom 2:6–7 }, in order to have eternal life rendered unto us.

That may be a good thing but it is not the way to heaven. That also is a teaching of Hinduism.

In { Heb 6:4–6 }, it t ells us we can separate ourselves from Christ through apostasy. In { Rom 11:22} it says we will be cut off from Christ if we do not continue in God’s kindness. And, in { John 15:1–6 }, it tells us that we will be cut off from the vine which is Christ if we do not produce good fruit.

I don't think you understand those verses; nevertheless they don't speak of what it is to have eternal and to keep eternal life. You are still missing the mark.

I could go on with many other examples, but how did this [eternal salvation] come about? By the grace of God. Because it is by the grace of God that we are born again through Christ – which is what occurs through Baptism. As Jesus tells us in { John 3:3–5 }, we must be born again of water and the Spirit (Baptism).

Jesus says nothing about baptism.
Again, Hindus believe that baptizing themselves in water washes away their sin. It is a pagan belief.
The new birth has nothing to do with water.

Without this, He says, no one may enter the Kingdom of Heaven. As it says in { Acts 2:38 }, through Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit and our sins are forgiven.

That is not what Acts 2:38 teaches. Such a misunderstanding of these verses would only demonstrate that you have know knowledge of the way of salvation.

God freely gives us His grace – grace merited for us by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ – through Baptism.

That is a heresy. Baptism makes you wet, and that is all that you will get from baptism.

His grace washes us free of sin and brings us into covenant with Him {Titus 2:4–7}.

Have you ever seen "grace" do anything? Tell me about it? Tell me how "grace" baptizes. I have never seen "grace" baptize. In our church pastors must be men, and the pastors do the baptizing. Grace is not permitted to baptize.

And it is by faith that we turn to Baptism to receive the promise of Christ – redemption unto eternal salvation{Rom 2:25}. Because without faith, it is impossible to please God {Heb 11:6}. And, this is not our doing, “lest any man should boast” {Eph 2:8–9}, it is a completely gratuitous act of God on our behalf.

Faith always has an object. The object of your faith (as stated) is baptism. That is superstition.
Unless the object of your faith is Christ, you can in no wise enter into heaven.

So, God freely saves us by His grace; however, to reiterate what was said above, in order to avoid separation from Christ, we must follow Him by denying ourselves and picking up our cross daily {Luke 9:23}. Furthermore, we must do His will in order to be saved{Matt 7:21].

It is an impossibility for any man to "do all his will" all of the time. By your own words you are doomed to Hell.

I guess a good one verse summary of the Catholic belief in salvation is this: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love,” {Gal 5:6}

Faith in what? You have expressed faith in works. Faith in works condemns not saves.

 

[lakeside]

DHK, you overlook {1 John5:17 } " Not all sin is fatal " so a category of sin must be fatal/mortal sin. The Bible is very clear on that wouldn't you say DHK ?

Rom. 8: 24- ..for in this "hope" we were saved { why "hope" if salvation is a certainty ? }

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

 

[PreachTony]

So, God freely saves us by His grace; however, to reiterate what was said above, in order to avoid separation from Christ, we must follow Him by denying ourselves and picking up our cross daily {Luke 9:23}. Furthermore, we must do His will in order to be saved{Matt 7:21]. I guess a good one verse summary of the Catholic belief in salvation is this: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love,” {Gal 5:6}

You have made statement after statement that some type of work is required on our part to maintain our salvation, then you say that a verse that says only faith avails for us is an encapsulation of your beliefs. I'm confused.

 

[lakeside]

DHK,the Catholic Church teaches that one is saved through Baptism {John 3:3–5; 1 Ptr 3:20–21; Acts 2:38}, and that this is an absolutely free gift of God – not because of faith nor because of works. That salvation is an absolutely free gift of God can be seen most clearly in the practice of infant Baptism, where the child cannot make an act of faith nor can he perform any work. He is saved gratuitously by God.

However, once a person is justified (saved) through Baptism, then they must continue to abide in Christ, or they can lose that salvation {John 15:6}. How do you abide in Christ? Through faith and works {John 6:54, 56; John 15:10; 1 John 2:5–6; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:16; 2 John 9}. In other words, God gives us a free gift – the gift of eternal life. We do not earn that gift, it is freely given. Yet, we have to respond to that gift. We can choose to not open that gift; to not apply it to our lives; to reject it – at any point after we have been saved. That’s why Paul warns the Gentiles about the possibility of being cut off from the olive tree (Christ) in{ Romans 11:17–24} That’s why Paul tells the Galatians that if they accept circumcision, and the law that goes with it, they will be severed from Christ (Gal 5:4) – another verse to which you failed to respond.

Furthermore, we do not have to throw out the Books of Romans and Galatians – Catholics believe every single verse in each of those books, and there is nothing in either of those books that is contrary to anything in the Catholic Faith, and vice versa. The problem you are having again stems from a bad interpretation you have made. Romans and Galatians do not say that “works play no part in salvation,” they say that “works of the law” play no part in salvation. Does that mean all works? No, it does not. It means the works of the law that were imposed upon the Israelites by God in the desert. We see this quite clearly in [Galatians 3:17} which tells us the law came “four hundred and thirty years after” Abraham. In other words, the phrase, “works of the law,” refers n ot to all good works, as you interpret it, but to the very specific requirements of the Mosaic Law.

By your reasoning, a person can be saved, but then can go out and commit murder, rape, robbery, blasphemy, heresy, idolatry, homosexuality, fornication, adultery, and every other manner of sin, and never repent of those sins, and yet still be absolutely assured of their salvation. That, with all due respect, is nuts. If eternal security – absolute assurance of salvation – is true, then Paul’s letters to the Romans, to the Corinthians, the Galatians, Ephesians, and everyone else should have simply said: “Hey guys, you made it. Relax and rest easy because you’re saved. See ya in Heaven. Paul”

 

[PreachTony]

DHK,the Catholic Church teaches that one is saved through Baptism {John 3:3–5; 1 Ptr 3:20–21; Acts 2:38}, and that this is an absolutely free gift of God – not because of faith nor because of works. That salvation is an absolutely free gift of God can be seen most clearly in the practice of infant Baptism, where the child cannot make an act of faith nor can he perform any work. He is saved gratuitously by God.

<snip>

Furthermore, we do not have to throw out the Books of Romans and Galatians – Catholics believe every single verse in each of those books, and there is nothing in either of those books that is contrary to anything in the Catholic Faith, and vice versa. The problem you are having again stems from a bad interpretation you have made. Romans and Galatians do not say that “works play no part in salvation,” they say that “works of the law” play no part in salvation. Does that mean all works? No, it does not. It means the works of the law that were imposed upon the Israelites by God in the desert. We see this quite clearly in [Galatians 3:17} which tells us the law came “four hundred and thirty years after” Abraham. In other words, the phrase, “works of the law,” refers n ot to all good works, as you interpret it, but to the very specific requirements of the Mosaic Law.

Paul was pretty clear in Ephesians when he said "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." If an infant is truly saved because someone else professed faith for him and someone else baptized him, then would he not have occasion to boast in the works of man for saving him?

He was clear to the Romans when he wrote:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Neither of those places mentions baptism having anything to do with salvation. Neither of those places mentions a parent being able to profess their own child into salvation. No, the individual must make a profession of Christ on their own. Romans 10:13 does not say "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord for someone else shall save someone else." It says "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Note also that neither of these places mentions anything about maintaining sacraments in order to maintain salvation.

 

[Walter]

Paul was pretty clear in Ephesians when he said "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." If an infant is truly saved because someone else professed faith for him and someone else baptized him, then would he not have occasion to boast in the works of man for saving him?


Deleted by me, will re-post later.

 

[DHK]

DHK, you overlook {1 John5:17 } " Not all sin is fatal " so a category of sin must be fatal/mortal sin. The Bible is very clear on that wouldn't you say DHK ?

No.
The Bible doesn't teach vile Catholic doctrine.
There are not different kinds of sins in the Bible.
There is one kind of sin--a breaking of the law which is defined in 1John 3:4

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
--Whether it is murder or telling a lie, the sin is the same. It is breaking God's lie. It will still keep you out of heaven. There is no such thing as a mortal sin. That classification of sin is man-made. It is pure foolishness. It is not found in the Bible, is contrary to Biblical teaching.

 

[DHK]

DHK,the Catholic Church teaches that one is saved through Baptism {John 3:3–5; 1 Ptr 3:20–21; Acts 2:38}, and that this is an absolutely free gift of God – not because of faith nor because of works. That salvation is an absolutely free gift of God can be seen most clearly in the practice of infant Baptism, where the child cannot make an act of faith nor can he perform any work. He is saved gratuitously by God.

Baptism doesn't save anyone. It simply gets them wet.
Baptism was so far down on Paul's list that he said:
"God did not send me to baptize."
"I thank God that I baptized none of you..."

If baptism was so important; if it brought salvation; why was the attitude of Paul against Baptism?

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Christ commanded Paul NOT TO BAPTIZE, but rather to preach the gospel.
It is the gospel that saves, not baptism. Baptism is done symbolically in obedience to Christ. It is only symbolic in nature and that is all. What does it do for you. It gets you wet and nothing more. It is not salvic. It does not bless. It does not sanctify. There is no special grace of any kind that comes through baptism. It gets you wet, and that is all.
It is a symbolic action done in obedience to Christ, and that is all.

 

[Rebel]

Baptism doesn't save anyone. It simply gets them wet.
Baptism was so far down on Paul's list that he said:
"God did not send me to baptize."
"I thank God that I baptized none of you..."

If baptism was so important; if it brought salvation; why was the attitude of Paul against Baptism?

1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Christ commanded Paul NOT TO BAPTIZE, but rather to preach the gospel.
It is the gospel that saves, not baptism. Baptism is done symbolically in obedience to Christ. It is only symbolic in nature and that is all. What does it do for you. It gets you wet and nothing more. It is not salvic. It does not bless. It does not sanctify. There is no special grace of any kind that comes through baptism. It gets you wet, and that is all.
It is a symbolic action done in obedience to Christ, and that is all.

There is even scripture that says Jesus Himself did not baptize. I'll let those interested look it up.

 

[DHK]

However, once a person is justified (saved) through Baptism, then they must continue to abide in Christ, or they can lose that salvation {John 15:6}. How do you abide in Christ? Through faith and works {John 6:54, 56; John 15:10; 1 John 2:5–6; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:16; 2 John 9}. In other words, God gives us a free gift – the gift of eternal life. We do not earn that gift, it is freely given. Yet, we have to respond to that gift. We can choose to not open that gift; to not apply it to our lives; to reject it – at any point after we have been saved. That’s why Paul warns the Gentiles about the possibility of being cut off from the olive tree (Christ) in{ Romans 11:17–24} That’s why Paul tells the Galatians that if they accept circumcision, and the law that goes with it, they will be severed from Christ (Gal 5:4) – another verse to which you failed to respond.

All I need to read here is your first statement: "once a person is justified through baptism." It is false. It is heretical. It is called baptismal regeneration. When one starts with a false premise he ends with a false conclusion. The rest of this paragraph is entirely false. I don't have to answer any of it, not a single verse. If you can't get past the first verse, then no need to answer the rest of it. One heresy leads to another. H2O does not save. Two atoms combined with one atom of oxygen cannot save. Even Jeremiah made a mockery of this scene:

Jer 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
--Water plus the strongest soap available (bleach) could not possibly wash away sin.
Only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that (1John 1:7)
Baptism avails you nothing; it simply gets you wet.

Furthermore, we do not have to throw out the Books of Romans and Galatians – Catholics believe every single verse in each of those books, and there is nothing in either of those books that is contrary to anything in the Catholic Faith, and vice versa. The problem you are having again stems from a bad interpretation you have made. Romans and Galatians do not say that “works play no part in salvation,” they say that “works of the law” play no part in salvation. Does that mean all works? No, it does not. It means the works of the law that were imposed upon the Israelites by God in the desert. We see this quite clearly in [Galatians 3:17} which tells us the law came “four hundred and thirty years after” Abraham. In other words, the phrase, “works of the law,” refers n ot to all good works, as you interpret it, but to the very specific requirements of the Mosaic Law.

I don't have the room or the time to explain these books to you. You have no idea what they teach. You don't have a basic understanding of salvation. How can you understand these books written by Paul. It is impossible.
Understand this verse:
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

By your reasoning, a person can be saved, but then can go out and commit murder, rape, robbery, blasphemy, heresy, idolatry, homosexuality, fornication, adultery, and every other manner of sin, and never repent of those sins, and yet still be absolutely assured of their salvation. That, with all due respect, is nuts. If eternal security – absolute assurance of salvation – is true, then Paul’s letters to the Romans, to the Corinthians, the Galatians, Ephesians, and everyone else should have simply said: “Hey guys, you made it. Relax and rest easy because you’re saved. See ya in Heaven. Paul”

If your trust is in your baptism, unfortunately you won't see me in heaven. You don't seem to have any understanding of salvation whatsoever.
When a person trusts Christ the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within that person, changes that person so that he no longer desires to do those things. However if he does sin he does not lose his salvation.
A person who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit will never life "a life of sin." If he did he is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That is obvious. But neither is he perfect. Perfection comes only when one reaches heaven. There is no sin that sends a believer to hell.
David committed adultery and murder but was never in danger of going to hell. He prayed to the Lord: "Restore unto me the joy of my salvation."
Notice he didn't pray: "restore my salvation," but simply "the joy of my salvation." There is a big difference. His salvation was secure.

 

[Rebel]

Where in the Bible does it say that anyone is justified through baptism? All this time I thought it was by grace through faith.

 

[PreachTony]

If your trust is in your baptism, unfortunately you won't see me in heaven. You don't seem to have any understanding of salvation whatsoever.
When a person trusts Christ the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within that person, changes that person so that he no longer desires to do those things. However if he does sin he does not lose his salvation.

I wonder, does the Catholic Bible not include the part about being sealed unto the day of redemption?

A person who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit will never life "a life of sin." If he did he is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That is obvious. But neither is he perfect. Perfection comes only when one reaches heaven. There is no sin that sends a believer to hell.

Well, there is a sin that is unforgiveable, or unpardonable, but that is unbelief. Otherwise, I don't recall reading of a particular sin that carries with it an immediate punishment of going to Hell. I do remember reading that if a man offend (or, break) the law in one part, even if he has kept all other parts of the law, he is still guilty of breaking the law.

David committed adultery and murder but was never in danger of going to hell. He prayed to the Lord: "Restore unto me the joy of my salvation."
Notice he didn't pray: "restore my salvation," but simply "the joy of my salvation." There is a big difference. His salvation was secure.

Actually, DHK, Psalm 51:12 reads "the joy of thy salvation." It's important to recognize that David called salvation of the Lord. He didn't say "restore unto me the joy of thy baptism" though. You're making an excellent case, though. Great work.

 

[Rebel]

Where in the Bible does it say that anyone is justified through baptism? All this time I thought it was by grace through faith.

Oh, well, here it is: John 4:2.