Baptist Bride?

[David Lamb]

The church that Christ set up has by scriptures presented the church as, few, the remnant, the little flock, etc. The number of the elect are presented as the sands of the sea and the stars in the heavens, too many to count. There is a universal church which incompuses all of the elect and there is a visiable church that preaches the truth of Christ's doctrine.

Forest, I think this is getting more and more confusing (my fault I expect! :laugh: ) Perhaps it will help if I go back to your first post, and insert my comments:

All of God's elect make up the bride of Christ,

I agree. All people of all places and all times (past, present and future) who know the Lord Jesus Christ personally do indeed make up the bride of Christ.

but only a few of the elect make up the visable church.

If you mean that many of the elect have already died and gone to be with their Saviour, and possibly (depending on when the Lord comes again) many have yet to be born, I would agree with that, too. But if you mean that you believe that most Christians alive on earth today are not part of the visible church, I disagree.

This is explained in Eze refering to a wheel within a wheel.

As far as I know, this notion of a wheel within a wheel is mentioned twice inb Ezekiel, in 1:6 and 10:10:

The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

As for their appearance, all four looked alike––as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. ​

But please tell me, what makes you think that the outer wheel represents the bride of Christ and the inner wheel the visible church?

Matt 7:13-14 is an example of this, in that all of the people that enter into both gates are the elect children of God. Those of his elect who go into the wide gate are those that are believing in the false doctrine of eternal salvation by their works, The invisiable church, and those of God's elect that go into the strait gate are those of God's elect that have been revealed the truth of Christ's doctrine, the visiable church.

As with the Ezekiel wheels, what makes you think that the wide gate is entered by the elect who teach the false doctrine of salvation by works, and the narrow gate is entered by the "invisible church"? Do you not see that if someone believes in salvation by their own works, that person will see no reason for trusting the Lord Jesus Christ?

I hope that helps you to understand what I have been saying on this thread a bit more clearly.

 

[Tom Butler]

Now I'm confused. The Bride and the visible church are two different entities?

Also, doesn't this mean that the Universal Church is riddled with error, even heresy, even though members may be saved?

Can any denomination which teaches error qualify as a New Testament Church?

What is the function of the Universal Church? Where does it meet? Does it take up an offering?

Just thought I'd throw out these questions to get some of you stirred up.

 

[Tom Butler]

More questions:

Are Baptists wrong about any of the doctrines and practices which are the identifying marks which make them Baptist?

If the Baptist view is Biblical, then obviously Baptist churches are true New Testament churches. Where does that leave those who have different doctrines and practices? Can they qualify as New Testament churches? If not, then they are neither the Bride or the "visible" church, are they?

 

[David Lamb]

Now I'm confused. The Bride and the visible church are two different entities?

Also, doesn't this mean that the Universal Church is riddled with error, even heresy, even though members may be saved?

Can any denomination which teaches error qualify as a New Testament Church?

What is the function of the Universal Church? Where does it meet? Does it take up an offering?

Just thought I'd throw out these questions to get some of you stirred up.

Tom, before I reply (perhaps needlessly), could I ask if you were responding to my reply to Forest?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Now I'm confused. The Bride and the visible church are two different entities?

Also, doesn't this mean that the Universal Church is riddled with error, even heresy, even though members may be saved?

Can any denomination which teaches error qualify as a New Testament Church?

What is the function of the Universal Church? Where does it meet? Does it take up an offering?

Just thought I'd throw out these questions to get some of you stirred up.

Before your questions can be answered, I first need to know what your definition is of the New Testament church. Where does Scripture define its beginning, the mode & means of "membership", what is Biblically necessary for a group to be qualify for churchdom, what are the minimum requirements(members, staff, frequency of meetings, etc) before God grants "real church" status? Please substantiate with plenty of CLEAR Biblical references.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom, before I reply (perhaps needlessly), could I ask if you were responding to my reply to Forest?

David, it was Forest's statement in post #2 which first got my attention:

All of God's elect make up the bride of Christ, but only a few of the elect make up the visable church.

The rest of my posts was aimed at questioning the concept of the Universal Church. I understand that my view that there is no such animal is a minority view. So to the extent that you hold to a Universal Church, I was speaking to your view.

Many who hold to the U-Church have always assumed that this was an unchallenged and unchallengable view, because they never heard anybody question it. Or, they have heard the view that I hold, but only from those who think it's heresy.

Most have never been required to examine the U-church view in light of a challenge to it.

My purpose is to provide that challenge, and force some folks out of their comfort zones.

That's why I ask such questions as, what does the U-church actually do?

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I see that you refused to come out of your comfort zone & answer the questions concerning the church. Either that, or you cannot find passages which clearly detail your answers.

 

[Tom Butler]

Before your questions can be answered, I first need to know what your definition is of the New Testament church. Where does Scripture define its beginning, the mode & means of "membership", what is Biblically necessary for a group to be qualify for churchdom, what are the minimum requirements(members, staff, frequency of meetings, etc) before God grants "real church" status? Please substantiate with plenty of CLEAR Biblical references.

I haven't been on the board for 19 hours, so I'm not ignoring your questions. Just now getting back on.

A New Testament church is a group of believers who have covenanted together in worship, Bible study, ministry, missions,evangelism and other things it may decide to to do in Jesus' name..

My church is a New Testament Church. I'll bet yours is one, too.

Jesus established his church during his earthly ministry when he had completed calling the Twelve.

First requirement: It should actually meet. Regularly. The scripture records that the practice then was on the first day of the week.

Should have officers: Pastor(s)(elders)(bishops) and deacons. Pastor, elder and bishop are the same person. See Acts 20:28 and the verses immediately preceding.

It should observe the ordinances, baptism (the door to church membership) and the Lord's Supper. Acts 2, I Cor 11, I Cor 12:13.

It should be obedient to the Great Commission. Matthew 28:19-20


I'll stop there to wait for you to make your point. You know what a NT congregation is as well as I do, and I expect we'll agree more than not.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I haven't been on the board for 19 hours, so I'm not ignoring your questions. Just now getting back on.

A New Testament church is a group of believers who have covenanted together in worship, Bible study, ministry, missions,evangelism and other things it may decide to to do in Jesus' name..

My church is a New Testament Church. I'll bet yours is one, too.

Jesus established his church during his earthly ministry when he had completed calling the Twelve.

First requirement: It should actually meet. Regularly. The scripture records that the practice then was on the first day of the week.

Should have officers: Pastor(s)(elders)(bishops) and deacons. Pastor, elder and bishop are the same person. See Acts 20:28 and the verses immediately preceding.

It should observe the ordinances, baptism (the door to church membership) and the Lord's Supper. Acts 2, I Cor 11, I Cor 12:13.

It should be obedient to the Great Commission. Matthew 28:19-20


I'll stop there to wait for you to make your point. You know what a NT congregation is as well as I do, and I expect we'll agree more than not.

I need more specifics. Your answer is rather vague. Let's say a man picked up a Bible in an anti-Christian nation, became a believer & told two other people who became believers. They meet sporadically to read that Bible & sing psalms together. Would those three people be a church with no man-made covenants or institutional trappings? What are the Biblical quantifiers? Your answer describes what a church does, not what it is. What are the Biblical requirements for God to consider a group to be a church?

Also, where do you see in Scripture that we must be covenanted together by any covenant other than the New Covenant in Christ's blood?

 

[Forest]

Elect are the few, the saved will be amount saved like the sands of the seashore.

Matthew 9:
The Workers Are Few
35 Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. 36 When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. 37 Then he said to his disciples, “The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. 38 Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.”

Matthew 22:14
“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

The few, the elect

Revelation 7:
4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


God will use this elect to bring the saved in



Revelation 7:
The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The elect, the few

Ephesians 1:
11 In him we were also chosen,[Or were made heirs] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.


The saved like the sands of the sea shore

Ephesians 1:
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

To be included means they were not there in the first place.

Yes there are many scriptures that conclude that there will be a great number who will be in heaven (all of the elect), however, there are no scriptures that affirm that there are a great number that make up the church that Christ set up. Eph 1:13, in the KJV says, "In whom ye also trusted, after ye heard the word of truth (Christ's doctrine). There are many of God's elect that do not understand Christ's doctrine who are numbered as those that go in the wide gate. Those who do, by the inspiration, understand Christ's doctrine are sealed (confirmed) by that Holy Spirit of promise. They were already born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but confirmed at understanding Christ's doctrine. Instead of having the law written in tables of stone, we have the law of Christ written in the fleshly tables of our hearts and when we hear the word of God and it corresponds with what is written in our hearts, we are sealed with confirmation by the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor 3:2-3.

 

[Forest]

Forest, I think this is getting more and more confusing (my fault I expect! :laugh: ) Perhaps it will help if I go back to your first post, and insert my comments:


I agree. All people of all places and all times (past, present and future) who know the Lord Jesus Christ personally do indeed make up the bride of Christ.

If you mean that many of the elect have already died and gone to be with their Saviour, and possibly (depending on when the Lord comes again) many have yet to be born, I would agree with that, too. But if you mean that you believe that most Christians alive on earth today are not part of the visible church, I disagree.

As far as I know, this notion of a wheel within a wheel is mentioned twice inb Ezekiel, in 1:6 and 10:10:

The appearance of the wheels and their workings was like the color of beryl, and all four had the same likeness. The appearance of their workings was, as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

As for their appearance, all four looked alike––as it were, a wheel in the middle of a wheel. ​

But please tell me, what makes you think that the outer wheel represents the bride of Christ and the inner wheel the visible church?


As with the Ezekiel wheels, what makes you think that the wide gate is entered by the elect who teach the false doctrine of salvation by works, and the narrow gate is entered by the "invisible church"? Do you not see that if someone believes in salvation by their own works, that person will see no reason for trusting the Lord Jesus Christ?

I hope that helps you to understand what I have been saying on this thread a bit more clearly.

The church that Christ set up (the visible church) has many different names that it is called in the scriptures, such as, The few, The little flock, the kingdom of God, the church of the first born, the remnant, The church in the wilderness, the bride. Matt 19:24, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into (the visible church) the kingdom of God. I believe that there will be a lot of rich men who will enter into heaven, but very few that will enter into Christ's church. Zephaniah 3:12, I will leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord. Matt 16:28, There be some standing here, which shall not tast of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (the visible church).

 

[Forest]

Now I'm confused. The Bride and the visible church are two different entities?

Also, doesn't this mean that the Universal Church is riddled with error, even heresy, even though members may be saved?

Can any denomination which teaches error qualify as a New Testament Church?

What is the function of the Universal Church? Where does it meet? Does it take up an offering?

Just thought I'd throw out these questions to get some of you stirred up.

There are many churches that have been set up by man, but only one church that was set up by Christ. Most of God's elect (the invisible church) attends the various man made churches of the world, but only a few attend the true church that Christ set up.

 

[Forest]

David, it was Forest's statement in post #2 which first got my attention:
The rest of my posts was aimed at questioning the concept of the Universal Church. I understand that my view that there is no such animal is a minority view. So to the extent that you hold to a Universal Church, I was speaking to your view.

Many who hold to the U-Church have always assumed that this was an unchallenged and unchallengable view, because they never heard anybody question it. Or, they have heard the view that I hold, but only from those who think it's heresy.

Most have never been required to examine the U-church view in light of a challenge to it.

My purpose is to provide that challenge, and force some folks out of their comfort zones.

That's why I ask such questions as, what does the U-church actually do?

Most of God's elect do attend the various man made churches and worship God the best way as they know how (those who enter the wide gate in Matt 7:13) but they have not been revealed by the Holy Spirit the truth of Christ's doctrine. Isaiah 54:1, For more are the children of the desolate (destitute) than the children of the married wife (the bride of Christ).

 

[Forest]

I haven't been on the board for 19 hours, so I'm not ignoring your questions. Just now getting back on.

A New Testament church is a group of believers who have covenanted together in worship, Bible study, ministry, missions,evangelism and other things it may decide to to do in Jesus' name..

My church is a New Testament Church. I'll bet yours is one, too.

Jesus established his church during his earthly ministry when he had completed calling the Twelve.

First requirement: It should actually meet. Regularly. The scripture records that the practice then was on the first day of the week.

Should have officers: Pastor(s)(elders)(bishops) and deacons. Pastor, elder and bishop are the same person. See Acts 20:28 and the verses immediately preceding.

It should observe the ordinances, baptism (the door to church membership) and the Lord's Supper. Acts 2, I Cor 11, I Cor 12:13.

It should be obedient to the Great Commission. Matthew 28:19-20


I'll stop there to wait for you to make your point. You know what a NT congregation is as well as I do, and I expect we'll agree more than not.

The new teastament church that Christ set up, according to the scriptures, has always been just a few, the little flock. It is not know by the name that it is called, but by the doctrine it teaches. It will only have constituted in to it, preaching, praying and singing. All other things that man has added to their worship services will set them apart from Christ's church, such as, bible study, missions and evangelism. The only things that Christ ordained to be observed by the church is these three things, Preaching, praying and singing. The God called elders (preachers) are to feed the flock, John 21:16-17.

 

[Tom Butler]

I need more specifics. Your answer is rather vague. Let's say a man picked up a Bible in an anti-Christian nation, became a believer & told two other people who became believers. They meet sporadically to read that Bible & sing psalms together. Would those three people be a church with no man-made covenants or institutional trappings? What are the Biblical quantifiers? Your answer describes what a church does, not what it is. What are the Biblical requirements for God to consider a group to be a church?

Also, where do you see in Scripture that we must be covenanted together by any covenant other than the New Covenant in Christ's blood?

I have already described what a church does, and what it does reveals what it is. A group can't just decide to BE a church independently of what a church DOES. You can call your group a church all day long, but absent those identifying marks, it's a meaningless exercise.

A group which purposely comes together to form a church builds that church around common doctrines and practices, and a commitment both to God and to each other. To me, that's a covenant, an agreement, a joining of hearts and minds in a common purpose.

 

[David Lamb]

I see that you refused to come out of your comfort zone & answer the questions concerning the church. Either that, or you cannot find passages which clearly detail your answers.

You don't say who the "you" is in your post, Michael, but whoever you meant, there are other possible reasons for that person not posting, including computer problems, responsibilities (to church, family, employer, etc.) that mean there is not enough time at the moment to take part in Baptist Board discussions, and illness. I think it is wrong to assume that someone is not replying because he/she is imprisoned in a "comfort zone", lacks the ability to answer, or cannot find scripture to back up his/her beliefs.

 

[David Lamb]

Whoops! .....

 

[michael-acts17:11]

You don't say who the "you" is in your post, Michael, but whoever you meant, there are other possible reasons for that person not posting, including computer problems, responsibilities (to church, family, employer, etc.) that mean there is not enough time at the moment to take part in Baptist Board discussions, and illness. I think it is wrong to assume that someone is not replying because he/she is imprisoned in a "comfort zone", lacks the ability to answer, or cannot find scripture to back up his/her beliefs.

The questions were originally asked of Tom Butler. His answers are still an exercise in avoidance. I responding in like kind to his "comfort zone" comment. I have responded to his questions with premise-qualifying questions of my own. He has been unwilling to answer them with church-defining specific answers.

This is the wall I have run into with every visible church-only defender I have spoken with. I have yet to meet one who will quantify his/her beliefs with specific Biblically-supported requirements for a group to be considered by God to be a church. They refuse because the answers cut to the heart of their own beliefs. If they were to search the Scriptures for the answers, they would have to admit that they have been assuming that their "facts" are givens rather than ensuring that they are Biblically-derived truths.

 

[Tom Butler]

The new teastament church that Christ set up, according to the scriptures, has always been just a few, the little flock. It is not know by the name that it is called, but by the doctrine it teaches. It will only have constituted in to it, preaching, praying and singing. All other things that man has added to their worship services will set them apart from Christ's church, such as, bible study, missions and evangelism. The only things that Christ ordained to be observed by the church is these three things, Preaching, praying and singing. The God called elders (preachers) are to feed the flock, John 21:16-17.

I'm glad you agree that Jesus established his church during his earthly ministry.

I certainly agree that preaching, praying and singing are functions of a New Testament church But I must ask for clarification. Do I really understand you to say that Bible study, missions and evangelism are not functions of a New Testament church? Would you expand on how you reached that conclusion?

 

[Tom Butler]

Most of God's elect do attend the various man made churches and worship God the best way as they know how (those who enter the wide gate in Matt 7:13) but they have not been revealed by the Holy Spirit the truth of Christ's doctrine. Isaiah 54:1, For more are the children of the desolate (destitute) than the children of the married wife (the bride of Christ).

Forest, I'm dense, I just don't know what you're trying to say here. But I'm pretty sure that if I did understand, I wouldn't agree with it. Please explain how you came to this view.