Baptist but not a Calvinist?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

So you say that you are Baptist but not a Calvinist.

How about looking at the five points of Calvinism and see how you fair? Tell us which ones you agree with and which ones you don’t.

• Total depravity.
• Unconditional election
• Limited Atonement
• Irresistible grace
• Perseverance of the saints

 

[genesis12]

Pilgrim, every person who ever posted on these boards could answer you, and you'd never be satisfied with the answer. You'd play oneupsmanship from now until earth is burnt up (see Peter). It's a waste of time. So spake a Southern Baptist who is not now, never has been, and never will be a Calvinist ~~ or an Arminian. I don't like the food there.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Genesis12: Pilgrim, every person who ever posted on these boards could answer you, and you'd never be satisfied with the answer. You'd play oneupsmanship from now until earth is burnt up (see Peter). It's a waste of time. So spake a Southern Baptist who is not now, never has been, and never will be a Calvinist ~~ or an Arminian. I don't like the food there.

HP: You should not be so hasty with your remarks concerning my motives you know nothing about. This is not about oneupsmanship. This is about the truth. Seeking the truth and exposing error is not a waste of time. I believe it would do us both good to sharpen iron with iron.

Can we reason together?

 

[LeBuick]

Pilgrim, every person who ever posted on these boards could answer you, and you'd never be satisfied with the answer. You'd play oneupsmanship from now until earth is burnt up (see Peter). It's a waste of time. So spake a Southern Baptist who is not now, never has been, and never will be a Calvinist ~~ or an Arminian. I don't like the food there.

Well put, I hate the food also...

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LeBuick: Well put, I hate the food also...

HP: What kind of an answer is that? Why not tell us what you believe is right or wrong with the five points of Calvinism, where you agree or might not agree?

 

[Martin]

How about looking at the five points of Calvinism and see how you fair? Tell us which ones you agree with and which ones you don’t.

You first :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Martin: You first

HP: There is one in every crowd! Just kidding.

Lets see. First I do not claim any denominational leaning. Secondly I will tell you upfront that I believe all five points are in error in the way they are understood and explained by Calvin and most every denomination that follows the Calvinistic directives. I might say close to the same thing in an area or two, but in reality it is not in accordance to that which I have heard espoused for over fifty years by those claiming to be Calvinist, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc.

Your turn:thumbs:

 

[El_Guero]

all five points are in error in the way they are understood and explained by Calvin

I think I may have missed something here ... When was it that Calvin explained the five points?

 

[Rev. Lowery]

3 points here

1
3
5

They work for me...

2....4..... Mean we don't have freewill which would make spreading the gospel pointless, if we all have no choice but to be saved then why do we have to choose Christ as Lord and Savior !!!!

Then there are points in Arminianism with which I agree......so yea !!!!

WOOOOOT JESUS 4TW !!!!!!!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

El Guero: I think I may have missed something here ... When was it that Calvin explained the five points?

HP: I personally cannot point to where he laid out these five points as ‘five points.” I have not read all of Calvin’s writings, but I have read enough of his Institutes to believe that they are clearly established in them. Possibly others might have different knowledge.

The five points I have listed are such commonly called the Five Points of Calvinism. I thought it was a given that indeed we all would be in agreement to them being expressed by Calvin. If anyone one feels that they are incorrectly associated with Calvin in any way, I am sure willing to listen.

 

[Martin]

HP: There is one in every crowd! Just kidding.

==Of course there must be :laugh: .

Lets see. First I do not claim any denominational leaning.

==I am Southern Baptist.

Secondly I will tell you upfront that I believe all five points are in error in the way they are understood and explained by Calvin and most every denomination that follows the Calvinistic directives.

==The modern Southern Baptist Convention is trying its best to get away from the "doctrines of grace". This can be seen in the views of many the current leaders (Paige Patterson, Johnny Hunt, Ergun Caner, Jerry Falwell, etc). However there are a few Southern Baptists who do hold to the doctrines of grace (Tom Ascol, Al Mohler). This group/view is growing and may, one day, be the mainstream group in the Southern Baptist Convention. It is my opinion that the Southern Baptist Convention is in the midst of a change on this issue. It is also my opinion that the Statement of faith and the abstract both agree with the so called "doctrines of grace".

Personally I can agree with four of the five "points of Calvinism". I can accept total depravity, unconditional election, irresistible grace, and the final perseverence of the true believer. I am not convinced that limited atonement is Biblical. While I agree that it "makes sense" in the system of Calvinism I don't agree that it works Biblically. I am also a dispensationalist which puts me at odds with many Calvinists on the issue of eschatology. I also agree with the Baptist form of church government.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rev. Lowry:
1
3
5

They work for me...

2....4..... Mean we don't have freewill which would make spreading the gospel pointless, if we all have no choice but to be saved then why do we have to choose Christ as Lord and Savior !!!!

Then there are points in Arminianism with which I agree......so yea !!!!

WOOOOOT JESUS 4TW !!!!!!!

HP: Now here is an individual willing to take a risk for the sake of discussion. I appreciate your straight forward answer. By the way, I am slow at times. What might be the meaning of “WOOOOOT JESUS 4TW !!!!!!!?

Let’s see if we are on the same page as to what is the meaning of 1, 3, and 5. I take it that 1. upholds the doctrine of original sin. 2. That Christ only atoned for the elect 5.OSAS. Is this how you see them?

You say that you disagree with 2 and 4. I see 2, as stating that man has nothing to do with effecting salvation in the least, and that there are no conditions man must fulfill in order to be saved, and 4. as stating that if you are indeed chosen by God to salvation, there is absolutely no possibility that you could resist His grace and be eternally lost.

How are we doing? Are we on the same page so far?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Martin: Personally I can agree with four of the five "points of Calvinism".

HP: What is it about limited atonement that you see as ‘possibly’ not Biblical? You seem to be at least a solid candidate for a five point Calvinist title, being just one brick short of a full load.

 

[BobRyan]

How about looking at the five points of Calvinism and see how you fair? Tell us which ones you agree with and which ones you don’t.

• Total depravity - true.
• Unconditional election - wrong since it means "arbitrary selection" in 4 and 5 point Calvinism
• Limited Atonement - wrong since it means limited love, limited grace, limited Gospel as seen in 4 and 5 point Calvinism
• Irresistible grace - wrong
• Perseverance of the saints - right in supporting perseverance in scripture - wrong if it means OSAS instead

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

• [*]BR: Total depravity - true.
  [*]Unconditional election - wrong since it means "arbitrary selection" in 4 and 5 point Calvinism
  [*]Limited Atonement - wrong since it means limited love, limited grace, limited Gospel as seen in 4 and 5 point Calvinism
  [*]Irresistible grace - wrong
  [*]Perseverance of the saints - right in supporting perseverance in scripture - wrong if it means OSAS instead
  [*]

HP: I have some questions for you Bob. Would you mind explaining to the list what total depravity means to you, and the abilities or lack thereof you see man being born with or without? For instance. Many when holding to inherited depravity believe that man is a sinner from birth without any natural ability to obey God, described best as a dead log floating down a stream. How would you describe man as being 'totally depraved?'

 

[Marcia]

The five points I have listed are such commonly called the Five Points of Calvinism. I thought it was a given that indeed we all would be in agreement to them being expressed by Calvin. If anyone one feels that they are incorrectly associated with Calvin in any way, I am sure willing to listen.

The problem with discussing these and whether one believes them, is that the Calvinist 5 pointers have their own definitions for them. That's one reason I won't take the bait and refuse to say what I believe on any of them on a forum like this.

http://www3.calvarychapel.com/library/bryson-george/books/fpocwafw.htm
it is precisely because I understand Calvinism in general and the five points in particular that I am not a Calvinist-- of any kind. I have spent more than 27 years in the serious study of Scripture. I could not even begin to calculate the hundreds of hours I have given to the study of Biblical, Systematic and Historical Theology. With great interest I have also carefully read the writings of Calvinists as well as those considered more moderate. Just as Calvinists can and do understand non-Calvinistic systems of theology without embracing them, so non-Calvinists, such as myself, can understand Calvinism and still reject it as unbiblical.
If you understand Calvinism and still reject it, (as I do) some Calvinists will conclude that you must not really believe the Bible to be God's Word. Nothing could be further from the truth for myself and hundreds of thousands of others. Nevertheless, a rejection of Calvinism is interpreted by some Calvinists as a rejection of God's Word.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: I have some questions for you Bob. Would you mind explaining to the list what total depravity means to you, and the abilities or lack thereof you see man being born with or without? For instance. Many when holding to inherited depravity believe that man is a sinner from birth without any natural ability to obey God, described best as a dead log floating down a stream. How would you describe man as being 'totally depraved?'

Romans 3 shows the perfect definition of "Total Depravity" with "NO one" not even ONE seeking after God - not even ONE doing good. This has to be the description of the sinful nature.

I agree with the dead log idea. Dead in sin - unnable and unnwilling to choose life.

BUT when the supernatural drawing of God is brought into play as we see in John 12:32 "ALL MANKIND" is supernaturally "drawn to God" -- and this is done "effectively" such that ALL can hear and can respond -- enabled to choose and enabled to be inclined to choose.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: The problem with discussing these and whether one believes them, is that the Calvinist 5 pointers have their own definitions for them. That's one reason I won't take the bait and refuse to say what I believe on any of them on a forum like this.

HP: I believe I understand that and respect it. The nice thing about these forums is that if you desire to keep silent on an issue you are free to do so. There is much you can add to these discussions without sating which points you agree with or not. As you might have noticed, I am trying to be careful not to just assume that when one says ‘I believe in a certain point’ that they always mean the same thing another might by stating they agree with the same point.

In spite of the mass confusion that might exist on this issue, I believe there is much for each of us to gain if we will place our ideas under the scrutiny of Scripture, reason and logic, and experience. I believe it is good to test our opinions concerning Scripture with each other. It should develop a bit of humility in all of us.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Dead in sin - unnable and unnwilling to choose life.

HP: One question is, was the individual born that way or did he become that way? You say, ‘unable and unwilling to choose life.’ If this is true, then man has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation, for dead men have no wills and make no choices. God must be the sole initiator of salvation in sovereignly choosing who to save and who to damn, by simply granting abilities to some or witholding it from others. How can you deny a limited atonement, arbitrary grace as you put it? What influence can a dead man have upon God’s selection of who He grants the abilities to accept His offer? How can you deny a limited atonement if in fact God only grants to a limited amount of individuals the necessary means to salvation, while all others reamin dead without hope?

 

[webdog]

I'm baptist, and the only petal I agree with is the T. Not the way the calvinists define the T...the way the Bible does.