Baptist (Catholic) Missionaries

Frank, I love to read your posts brother! keep up the good work.

 

10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on123 all those who heard the message.124 10:45 The125 circumcised believers126 who had accompanied Peter were greatly astonished127 that128 the gift of the Holy Spirit129 had been poured out130 even on the Gentiles, - ACTS 10:44 NET

They received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized.

1:13 And when30 you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation)—when you believed in Christ31—you were marked with the seal32 of the promised Holy Spirit,33 1:14 who is the down payment34 of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession35 to the praise of his glory. – ACTS 1:13-14 NET

The Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing salvation.

2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each one of you be baptized77 in the name of Jesus Christ78 for79 the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.80 - Acts 2:38 NET

The Greek word which is translated as "for" is "eis". There are many different meaning for this word including "for the purpose of" and "because of".

If you go to prison for stealing, you generally are not going to prison "for the purpose of" stealing, rather you are sent there "because of" the stealing which you did.

If we were to interpret the following the way that baptismal regenerationists interpret Acts 2:38, we get an interesting heresy:

15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance3 what I also received—that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, - 1 Corinthians 15:3 NET

Shall we say that Christ died for the purpose of our sins as if through his death he commited our sins? No! Christ died because of our need to have our sins forgiven.

 

Chris T. you said my logic and my theology are convoluted and full of strawmen.. I don't think so.

The entire point of the mention of Adam was that he was not a sinner as you and I agree. he had no sin in him. YET he chose to disobey God. As did the fallen angels choose to disobey God. Now if these that are SINNLESS, who do not have a sin nature, have a freewill, and disobey God. Then how can you say Natural MAN has no freewill or ability to chose right from wrong?

Even Calvinist STILL Have a SIN nature. Do you deny that? When you sin, is it you who sins or is it God who makes you sin. or do you think you just dont sin anymore?

you talk about a SOVERIEGN GOD one who predestinates everything and who controls everything. you make GOD out to be the one who sins. not man. DO YOU GET THAT? By saying God forordained the evil actions of Joseph's brothers(which is NOT scriptural) what you are saying is that GOD Caused them to commit evil,and to go against his commandments in order to bring about his plans. you imply that GOD isn't powerful enough to acheive his goals if man has a freewill.

That is another point with Adam. according to Calvinist God foreordains everything. by saying that, you have God giving an order to Adam, then you have God force Adam, to sin against the command of God. ...how do you not see that??? but then you say well Adam chose to sin..So then how can you say God foreordains everything?? Either God gives man freewill and he doesn't predestinate and forordain everything or you have God forcing people to sin against his commandments. it's either or..

That is why i asked if it is you that sin or God? you say God foreordained everything..does he make you sin against him in order for him to acheive a purpose?

you take verses out of John and then refuse to take others. John 6:64 you want to use this to try to prove predestination of the elect yet don't want to acknowledge verse 70. what's up with that? you can't just pick and choose the verses you want. or like eph. 1:1-4 you want to take that and misuse it while ignoring v. 13.


You guys STILL havent proven your side all you've proven is that you can take verses and add your own thoughts to them or take them way out of context.

noone is denying the power of God. you love to accuse those who go against you of not believing in the power of God. I know God is in control,I just don't LIMIT him nor do I try to blame sin on him as you do, nor do I imply that God makes man sin against him in order for him to reach his goals, as you have.

"all that he(God) ordainsis good, even the evil"

and I am sorry God NEVER said evil is good..i don't know where you came up with that assumption..last I checked though Lucifer was ordained, God does NOT think Satan is good.

 

Dual:
No One is denying the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, It is not the baptism that saves. The text you have used do not teach it either. Cornelius was saved by the word.Peter was interrupted before he even could tell him all the words where by he must be saved. I believe the Greek word is ARCO simultaneus with the beginning. Peter said as I Began to speak the Hoily Spirt fell on them as it did on us at the begining. If they were saved at that point,the words , the preaching makes no sense.
If Cornelius was saved without the hearing the gospel, he was saved without faith. Read the account in order in Acts 11. Peter after the Spirit fell taught them all the words they needed to know to have faith formed and be saved. ( Acts 10:48). And he commanded them to be baptized.
Eis is tranlated over 1700 times in the New Testament and is NEVER translated because of. Even, the Baptist scholars Williams and Summers concede this. I guess they have a different Spirit than you.
If Eis is because sins have already been remitted then Jesus died and shed his blood for nothing. The Bible teaches the blood of Jesus was shed FOR the remission of sins.( Eph. 1:7, Col. 1:14, I Pet.1:17-19, Hebs. 9:22). In the gospel according to Mark, Jesus said," this MY blood of the New Testament which is shed FOR many."EIS is used here the same as in Acts 2:38.
Yes, we have a seal of inheritance, but notice it is AFTER YOU hear the WORD OF TRUTH and BELIEVE, not before. I have been contending for this the whole time. Thanks for the scripture.
Frank

 

KJV1611Only:
Thanks for the encouragement. I am glad to be of service.
Frank

 

Frank, you believe you must be baptized to be saved? Have you tried the seekers forum? Perhaps the other religions forum?

KJV1611only, you do not use a KJV 1611.

A lost person does not have the ability or the "free will" to change his ways. That is Bible. Consider what the confused (according to you) prophet Jeremiah had to say about the issue:
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil (13:23)."

You could just as easily be accused of taking verses out of context and manipulating them to mean what you want them to. Read Isaiah 46. Isaiah sure knew who was in charge.

You limit God and claim we do. You say that God does not do as He pleases. You say He really doesn't control all things. That sounds more like an idol than God. The God of Scripture can raise men up to a high position and then demonstrate His wrath on him (see Pharoah in Exodus and Romans).

Actually, God does foreordain evil. Consider Christ's death on the cross. Was that a morally right event or wicked? Did God foreordain it? Well, let us ask one of Christ's followers. Peter, what do you think? "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death (Acts 2:23)."

 

He must be born of the Spirit. That is the direct operation of the Holy Spirit. The Water is probably the word. Compare this with Titus 3:5: He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. It is clearly the direct work of the Spirit.

Your whole section on baptism is irrelevant. If you are arguing for baptismal regeneration, then your posting privileges here will be revoked. Those who believe in baptismal regeneration are required to post in the other religions forum.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit did not only happen at two places. It happens everytime a person get saved. Paul says that we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body (1 Cor 12:13). Spirit baptism is the non-experiential, judicial placing of one in the body of Christ. The Acts occasions referred to the initial baptism at the founding of the church. Those types of occurrences did not continue. Each has an explanation as the gospel was confirmed to other groups of people by the apostles (The Samaritans and then the Gentiles). Acts 11 bears this out.

I missed this. Show it to me in the text.

No it doesn’t. You either are lying or don’t understand Calvinism. If you read along here, I and others have consistently and strongly argued that faith is necessary.

We do argue that you should interpret Scripture properly.

Again, this has been constantly addressed. You simply will not deal with Scripture.

These two are not inconsistent. God did make us good. However, man sinned and thus became depraved. That sin was passed on to all men through federal headship.

You deny the clear teaching of Rom 5 and make unnecessary the death of Christ as I have already shown.

Calvinism does not teach that inherited guilt is greater than personal righteousness of Christ. How could anything be greater than the infinite righteousness of Christ? It is an oxymoron. All “in Adam” do inherit the guilt of Adam’s sin just as all “in Christ” inherit the righteousness of Christ. It is through imputation that this takes places. Rom 5 is clear.

Again, either a lie or a misunderstanding. I have consistently argued that the gospel is the power of God to salvation. However, natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God until the Holy Spirit working through the word illumines his mind (1 Cor 2:14).

Actually, Scripture denies this. Scripture places it totally in the work of God (Rom 4). No one denies that we must have faith but that faith comes from God. It is described as the obedience of faith. We must repent. That is the other side of faith and is used interchangeably with faith (Acts 11:17-18). Jesus did not say that we must be baptized for salvation.

This has been previously addressed. The Bible teaches that all who are in the likeness of Adam are sinners (Rom 5). You deny this. You misuse Matt 18:3 to prove your point.

This is unacceptable for you to continue in this manner. Because of your apparent belief in baptismal regeneration, you will asked to limit your posts to the other religions section of the board. If you have particular questions about this or wish to clarify your views on salvation, you may do so through a private message. This action is being taken because of your apparent belief in baptismal regeneration, not becuase of your disagreement with me.

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For the rest, this thread will be shut down. If you wish to address particular points out of this thread, you may start another one.

[ May 02, 2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]