Baptist - Catholic Talks Continue...

[Bro. Curtis]

The truth according to whom?

ICXC NIKA
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The truth according to Him...

What other truth is there ?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The truth according to Him...

Oh certainly He has the Truth, and that Truth was delivered and preserved. Only with all the unity just oozing forth from Protestantism, where may I find that Truth that was handed on from the Apostles and has been safeguarded from the beginning?

ICXC NIKA
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[trustitl]

Concerning your last statement. Do you think that the "Spirit produced" unity of the first century was visible?

In particular, do you think that in the first century there would have been 10 churches in the same town - all true representatives of the Christian faith - but having no visible link to one another?

(I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just wondering if you could expand on this idea of spiritual unity and how that actually worked in the 1st century and today.)

CA

Man has a different understanding of unity than God does. Here are a some synonyms given for unity: alliance, confederation, harmony, peace, solidarity, , uniformity, union.

When one has this understanding of unity the goal will be to come up with tangible manifestations of the unity described in the Bible. Hence, the types of conferences and ecumenical movements that we see today. Alliances between denominations are supposed to create unity. Uniformity among conservative Anabaptists such as the Amish or Mennonites in the areas of dress, and other lifestyle choices is going to create order (ie "Old Order Amish). Unanimity in ecumenical groups is supposed to show that they are all getting along (that is why they limit what they say they believe and do things like feed the poor and build homes for the homeless).

This flawed view of unity in the Spirit also leads some people to try duplicate the "Acts" of the early church: having things in common, going from house to house, practicing the holy kiss, meeting on a certain day, having their meetings like the one desribed in I Cor. 14, etc.

Regarding your question about the 1st century church and what it would have looked like I say it doesn't matter that much. They were living then, we are living now. What they did, where they met, who led them is not what we need to focus on. Because we are doing this, I think Paul would say to us "1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"

He then continues:

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

My body is in unity even though it has many parts that perform different functions. When my hands start to tell my feet what to do I am in trouble. The unity exists because of the head, not because of what they do.

From Websters 1828:
Unity of spirit, is the oneness which subsists between Christ and his saints, by which the same spirit dwells in both, and both have the same disposition and aims; and it is the oneness of christians among themselves, united under the same head, having the same spirit dwelling in them, and possessing the same graces, faith, love, hope, &c.

SUBSIST', v.i. [L. subsisto; sub and sisto, to stand, to be fixed.]
1. To be; to have existence; applicable to matter or spirit.

Our unity effects our aims and dispositions(Inclination; propensity; the temper or frame of mind, as directed to particular objects).

 

[trustitl]

Concerning your last statement. Do you think that the "Spirit produced" unity of the first century was visible?

In particular, do you think that in the first century there would have been 10 churches in the same town - all true representatives of the Christian faith - but having no visible link to one another?

(I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just wondering if you could expand on this idea of spiritual unity and how that actually worked in the 1st century and today.)

CA

Man has a different understanding of unity than God does. Here are a some synonyms given for unity: alliance, confederation, harmony, peace, solidarity, , uniformity, union.

When one has this understanding of unity the goal will be to come up with tangible manifestations of the unity described in the Bible. Hence, the types of conferences and ecumenical movements that we see today. Alliances between denominations are supposed to create unity. Uniformity among conservative Anabaptists such as the Amish or Mennonites in the areas of dress, and other lifestyle choices is going to create order (ie "Old Order Amish). Unanimity in ecumenical groups is supposed tp show that they are all getting along (that is why they limit what they say they believe).

This flawed view of unity in the Spirit also leads some people to try duplicate the "Acts" of the early church: having things in common, going from house to house, practicing the holy kiss, meeting on a certain day, having their meetings like the one desribed in I Cor. 14, etc.

Regarding your question about the 1st century church and what it would have looked like I say it doesn't matter that much. They were living then, we are living now. What they did, where they met, who led them is not what we need to focus on. Because we are doing this, I think Paul would say to us "1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"

He then continues:

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

My body is in unity even though it has many parts that perform different functions. When my hands start to tell my feet what to do I am in trouble. The unity exists because of the head, not because of what they do.

From Websters 1828:
Unity of spirit, is the oneness which subsists between Christ and his saints, by which the same spirit dwells in both, and both have the same disposition and aims; and it is the oneness of christians among themselves, united under the same head, having the same spirit dwelling in them, and possessing the same graces, faith, love, hope, &c.

DISPOSITION, n. [L.]

Inclination; propensity; the temper or frame of mind, as directed to particular objects.

PROPENS'ITY, n. [L. propensio.]
1. Bent of mind, natural or acquired; inclination; in a moral sense; disposition to any thing good or evil.

Despite what most people teach or think, we have a new nature after being born again. If we don't we are only deceiving ourselves. This is not to say that we don't sin after savlation, we do. We just don't have to. We continue to live in a body of flesh that has lusts contrary to the Spirit. It is by design that "we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.(II Cor. 4:7)

This unity must begin, rather, only can begin in the spirit. Any attempt to begin elsewhere will be vain.

Now to answer your regarding visible signs of unity. There will be, but they will only be discerned the same way begin because "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14). This is hard to admit for us because are like a 14 year old that thinks he knows everything. As we
"seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." and set our affection on things above, not on things on the earth" (Col 3) this will become easier to do. It is what I am learning. I have unity with others who are learning it as well.

Our unity is based on a relationship with the living God. As beings who are all living from "faith to faith" this unity does not come easy.

Thanks for asking. It was a great question that I never tried to anwer before. The exercise was a blessing to me as I am still trying to get a hold on this.

God bless

 

[webdog]

Oh certainly He has the Truth, and that Truth was delivered and preserved. Only with all the unity just oozing forth from Protestantism, where may I find that Truth that was handed on from the Apostles and has been safeguarded from the beginning?

ICXC NIKA
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I would hope you know where to find the Truth.

The catholic church does not teach it. Oh, they have the players right (God the Father, God the Son, Holy Spirit), but the game is wrong.

We are saved by grace throug faith, period. No sacraments or membership required

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

... This flawed view of unity in the Spirit also leads some people to try duplicate the "Acts" of the early church: having things in common, going from house to house, practicing the holy kiss, meeting on a certain day, having their meetings like the one desribed in I Cor. 14, etc...

You covered a lot of ground that will give me some things to ponder.

One thing jumped out at me. In the above quote are you saying that the NT church recorded in Acts did have a visible unity that was flawed? Or it did have a visible unity that we cannot duplicate today? Or are you making a different point in citing Acts and 1Cor14?

Thanks.

CA

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

... Regarding your question about the 1st century church and what it would have looked like I say it doesn't matter that much. They were living then, we are living now. What they did, where they met, who led them is not what we need to focus on...

But... if we don't use the NT church as our example, what is our standard?

CA