Baptist Confession of Faith sectn 19 -- why Baptists oppose themselves on this

[Salty]

1. The document does not call itself "A Baptist Confession of Faith" -- you of course can call it anything you like

2. My quote is the "verbatim one"

and Bruce Jennings calls himself a women -even though he is not.
so what is your point.
Did you not read the LINK in post # 6? There were at lest 8 COF prior to the the 1689.

Therefore it is logical to call it "A" confession of Faith.

Salty

It just dawned on me - the key word is LOGIC! it is a nice thing to have, try it sometime.

 

[loDebar]

"Although the 1689 London Confession (also known as the Second London Confession [SLC] to distinguish it from the 1644, or First London Baptist Confession) is a wonderful statement of Calvinistic Baptist faith, it should not be used as a local church’s statement of faith. Three factors lead to this conclusion"

Most baptist do not do predestination.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I don't know why they oppose their own teaching -- but I do not know that this part of their document is getting a lot of Bible doctrine right. Sadly it is often left "to me" to defend the teaching of section 19 while Baptist members here devote themselves to opposing its teaching. I find that "odd".

If you are in agreement with the Baptist Confession (as am I), you should obviously become a Baptist.
However, my impression is that you might actually have trouble with Paragraph 6.

 

[BobRyan]

If you are in agreement with the Baptist Confession (as am I), you should obviously become a Baptist.
However, my impression is that you might actually have trouble with Paragraph 6.

In my OP said this - quoting the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

I don't know why they oppose their own teaching -- but I do not know that this part of their document is getting a lot of Bible doctrine right. Sadly it is often left "to me" to defend the teaching of section 19 while Baptist members here devote themselves to opposing its teaching. I find that "odd".


Baptist Confession of Faith - section 19
===========================================
19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.

2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the Ten Commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.

3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.

4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.

5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.

6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

============================

Some Baptists also agree that the Bible has 66 books in it... do you agree with them?

Notice that ending?

"Some Baptists also agree that the Bible has 66 books in it... do you agree with them?"

It was put there for your comment above. (Had to wait a while for someone to post that comment but...finally!)

It is just as nonsensical to argue "you must convert to be Southern Baptist if you agree that there are 66 books in the Bible" - as to argue "you must convert to be Southern Baptist if you agree with section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith".

The point remains.

However, my impression is that you might actually have trouble with Paragraph 6.

Your "impression" from what??

It says "If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace."

6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

I think point six is where some folks on this board would have some heartburn.

 

[Yeshua1]

It argues that the 4th commandment is part of the Ten and is still included in the moral law of God - written on the heart as are all the Ten .. according to that document.

Details matter.

They also accept that the Bible has 66 books. Your flawed proposal that everything they teach must be in error if they do not perfectly reflect the accurate Bible teaching on the Sabbath ... is itself flawed.

Yes, and the Confession also states that the worship Day under the new Covenant is now the Lord's day, Sunday!

 

[Yeshua1]

In my OP said this - quoting the "Baptist Confession of Faith"



Notice that ending?

"Some Baptists also agree that the Bible has 66 books in it... do you agree with them?"

It was put there for your comment above. (Had to wait a while for someone to post that comment but...finally!)

It is just as nonsensical to argue "you must convert to be Southern Baptist if you agree that there are 66 books in the Bible" - as to argue "you must convert to be Southern Baptist if you agree with section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith".

The point remains.



Your "impression" from what??

It says "If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace."

6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

I think point six is where some folks on this board would have some heartburn.

No, for the really saved would want to walk in a way pleasing to God, as your Sda teaching would have us be giving lip service unto God, and keeping Law as Pharisees did, but the heart would be far from God!

 

[BobRyan]

It says "If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace."

6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.

I think point six is where some folks on this board would have some heartburn.

No, for the really saved would want to walk in a way pleasing to God,

A circular argument of the form "because my assumption is true - my assumption must be true"

while ignoring the highlighted text -- " and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility"

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, and the Confession also states that the worship Day under the new Covenant is now the Lord's day, Sunday!

1. Not in section 19. The fact that they are mostly correct in section 19 does not mean they must be infallibly correct in all other sections.

2. The fact that Baptists admit to 66 books of the Bible - does not mean everyone else who agrees with 66... must become Baptists.

 

[BobRyan]

"Although the 1689 London Confession (also known as the Second London Confession [SLC] to distinguish it from the 1644, or First London Baptist Confession) is a wonderful statement of Calvinistic Baptist faith, it should not be used as a local church’s statement of faith. Three factors lead to this conclusion"

Most baptist do not do predestination.

I am fine to have some baptists in favor and some oppose their "Baptist Confession of Faith" ... certainly I don't agree with every single word in it.

I find it odd however the way they oppose section 19 which says nothing at all about Calvinism or predestination

 

[BobRyan]

and Bruce Jennings calls himself a women -even though he is not.
so what is your point.
Did you not read the LINK in post # 6? There were at lest 8 COF prior to the the 1689.

Therefore it is logical to call it "A" confession of Faith.
.

You are free to call it whatever you like -- I just use the title for it - that the document itself uses.