baptist DEBATE forums

[Luke2427]

You are being very authoritative in this remark. You are stating it as if it is fact. You are frankly remarking that they are right and whoever is in disagreement is wrong.

This is speaking authoritatively.

You are being authoritative while speaking against being authoritative.

Furthermore, speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit means to speak with authority.

Notice how many times the word "bold" describing the speaking of the early church in Acts follows being filled with the Spirit.

They were of course simply following in the Master's footsteps. The folks in his day were astonished at his doctrine for he taught them as one having AUTHORITY.

 

[Amy.G]

Furthermore, speaking under the influence of the Holy Spirit means to speak with authority.

Notice how many times the word "bold" describing the speaking of the early church in Acts follows being filled with the Spirit.

They were of course simply following in the Master's footsteps. The folks in his day were astonished at his doctrine for he taught them as one having AUTHORITY.

And just what authority do you have Luke?

 

[menageriekeeper]

Luke, just a thought. We are using the word authority/tative, but wouldn't it be better to use the word confidently?

IF we speak with confidence, we are less like to offend than if we speak with an authority that we don't hold over another.

See, like this: You can say with confidence that it is cloudy at your house, but you don't have the authority to say the same about my house. And if you do and the sun is shining over here, I'm going to wonder about the size of your ego.

 

[Luke2427]

And just what authority do you have Luke?

The Word of God.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, just a thought. We are using the word authority/tative, but wouldn't it be better to use the word confidently?

IF we speak with confidence, we are less like to offend than if we speak with an authority that we don't hold over another.

See, like this: You can say with confidence that it is cloudy at your house, but you don't have the authority to say the same about my house. And if you do and the sun is shining over here, I'm going to wonder about the size of your ego.

This only works with relative truths- it is true here but not there. It does not work with universal truths.

Gravity holds me to the earth here and it holds you to the earth there. How do I sweeten that where some weak palate can handle it?

 

[John Toppass]

Luke, just a thought. We are using the word authority/tative, but wouldn't it be better to use the word confidently?

IF we speak with confidence, we are less like to offend than if we speak with an authority that we don't hold over another.

See, like this: You can say with confidence that it is cloudy at your house, but you don't have the authority to say the same about my house. And if you do and the sun is shining over here, I'm going to wonder about the size of your ego.

This response is a good example.

This only works with relative truths- it is true here but not there. It does not work with universal truths.

Gravity holds me to the earth here and it holds you to the earth there. How do I sweeten that where some weak palate can handle it?

In one post the writer is using clouds and sunshine as an example. The responder, responds by changing to gravity, as an example, without acknowledgment of the writer's example. Then closes by asking how he could make this understood by some one with a weak palate (ability to understand).

The responder could be going the wrong way. It is not who he is talking to that has the weak palate, but maybe he should develop his own palate to be stronger so he can continue to converse at the same level.

 

[Luke2427]

This response is a good example.



In one post the writer is using clouds and sunshine as an example. The responder, responds by changing to gravity, as an example, without acknowledgment of the writer's example. Then closes by asking how he could make this understood by some one with a weak palate (ability to understand).

Clouds vary from place to place. They are relative.

But gravity is not.

The gravity that works here in Mississippi works the same way in China.

It is universal.

That is the point.

With relative truths there can be a lack of authority since what is true here in Mississippi is not true in China concerning the clouds.

But I can say with authority that a ball will fall to the earth in China. Why? Because gravity is a universal truth. It exists here and there.

When we speak of Scripture, we speak with authority. What God says clearly we can say clearly and authoritatively.

Would you want a doctor who refuses to speak authoritatively about your treatments?

Would you want a lawyer who speaks with no authority concerning your case?

No.

And neither does anyone in their right mind want a theologian to speak in trite, weak, bland, language.

Of all people, theologians ought to speak with authority.

It is one thing for you to get sick and die because you doctor has no confidence in his knowledge of your condition.

It is one thing for you to lose your case because your lawyer is a cream puff pie pusillanimous worm-

But it is another thing altogether for people to lose their souls and Christians to suffer spiritual malnutrition because no one has the backbone to say- Thus saith the Lord.

The responder could be going the wrong way. It is not who he is talking to that has the weak palate, but maybe he should develop his own palate to be stronger so he can continue to converse at the same level.

?

 

[SRBooe]

Dear family members - the Christian family - may I inject a thought? Well, I am going to anyway.

Most arguments here are not over "the Word." They are over how we each want to interpret the Word.

As soon as I imply that one of you interprets the word incorrectly, you may choose to feel insulted. However, if I claim that your view is foolish or garbage, I have insulted you in a backhanded fashion.

While a person who subscribes to Cafeteria Christianity may actually be proud of a method of feeling good while living in sin, for anyone to suggest that I do that is hurtful. The one who says it may not know that it insults me while the person who unknowingly does that just doesn't understand what the big deal is about.

For those who throw rocks at "Fundi's," they can insult me merely because their view of the label is not the same as my view of it. That is the problem with labels - which we really should not use. They are too easily misunderstood and interpeted to mean one thing to this person and a different thing to someone else.

Some of these threads have gotten so juvenile that I quit reading them. That is NOT how we should treat each other.

I might think that one of you is just not reading and comprehending scripture, but who here is not going to be hurt when I suggest that? How can I suggest that without hurting any feelings?

Perhaps we should ask ourselves questions like that BEFORE we post.

I can speak with conviction of what I know to be true, but presenting it to someone else should not come from my prideful self - but from my loving self.

(I listened to a sermon on the way to work early this week. The speaker claimed that man's biggest downfall in this world is pride. A lot of sin and inability to do the work of God stems from pride. Perhaps our feeling hurt in a debate/discussion is because of it as well.)

 

[Tom Bryant]

Finally worked my way thru the arguements in this thread :smilewinkgrin:

I know I am different, but I didn't come to the board to argue or debate. I came for ideas and fellowship. Maybe that's why I have been spending less time here and commenting even less. This is not to say anything against those who enjoy that kind of interaction. But it's just not for me.

People have been arguing and debating most of these issues for 100's of years and good people differ, so I am not going to add to the noise level on either side because I tend to get defensive and harsh. And i don't want to do that.

 

[abcgrad94]

We need more like you here, Tom.

I don't mind the debates so much as all the personal attacks. There are some here who cannot debate the ISSUE, but must debate/attack/condemn/insult the PERSON. There is a difference. Lately I find less actual healthy debate here and more of the other. It makes me spend more time in the fellowship forums.

 

[menageriekeeper]

But I can say with authority that a ball will fall to the earth in China. Why? Because gravity is a universal truth. It exists here and there.

How far can you extend that? What if there were no balls in China? How is gravity affected if one moves from earth to space. Gravity is a universal fact, but it is affected still, by location.

When we speak of Scripture, we speak with authority. What God says clearly we can say clearly and authoritatively.

The only problem with that is your location. Your perspective on what God says "clearly" may not be as clear from my perspective.

would you want a doctor who refuses to speak authoritatively about your treatments?

Would you want a lawyer who speaks with no authority concerning your case?

And thus, I choose doctors and lawyers that I am confident have actual knowledge and wisdom and refuse those whose views/perspectives differ from mine. Just like I get to chose whose view/perspective of the Bible meshes with mine. Decisions like these are why we have the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[webdog]

You are being very authoritative in this remark. You are stating it as if it is fact. You are frankly remarking that they are right and whoever is in disagreement is wrong.

This is speaking authoritatively.

You are being authoritative while speaking against being authoritative.

Truth is fact, I did not say whoever is in disagreement is wrong, and that is not speaking authoritatively since I hold no authority over anyone here. Besides, didn't you agree with everyone I did something like "100%"? If you claim I held authority over those here, so did you. Authority is not the right word to describe it.

 

[webdog]

Clouds vary from place to place. They are relative.

But gravity is not.

The gravity that works here in Mississippi works the same way in China.

It is universal.

That is the point.

Actually it's not universal since the gravity that works here does not work on the moon, the sun, etc. Gravity therefore is also relative.

 

[Steven2006]

Finally worked my way thru the arguements in this thread :smilewinkgrin:

I know I am different, but I didn't come to the board to argue or debate. I came for ideas and fellowship. Maybe that's why I have been spending less time here and commenting even less. This is not to say anything against those who enjoy that kind of interaction. But it's just not for me.

People have been arguing and debating most of these issues for 100's of years and good people differ, so I am not going to add to the noise level on either side because I tend to get defensive and harsh. And i don't want to do that.

:applause:

Sadly I found out that this site was not very edifying for me at all, like I had first hoped it would be. It is interesting at times, and I have been informed of things which can been helpful, but rarely much more. Much too often it is less about the exchange of ideas, and growing in knowledge, but instead the exchange of barbs, insults. Sadly it often feels like many come here rather than for a thirst for knowledge, but instead for the thirst to be right.

 

[Luke2427]

Truth is fact, I did not say whoever is in disagreement is wrong, and that is not speaking authoritatively since I hold no authority over anyone here. Besides, didn't you agree with everyone I did something like "100%"? If you claim I held authority over those here, so did you. Authority is not the right word to describe it.

This is not about "holding authority over any one". Who believes that?

This is about speaking with authority.

au·thor·i·ty
   /əˈθɔrɪti, əˈθɒr-/ Show Spelled[uh-thawr-i-tee, uh-thor-] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ties.
1.
the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.
2.
a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?
3.
a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.
4.
Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.
5.
an accepted source of information, advice, etc.
6.
a quotation or citation from such a source.
7.
an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.
8.
persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.

Authority IS the right word to describe it.

 

[Luke2427]

Actually it's not universal since the gravity that works here does not work on the moon, the sun, etc. Gravity therefore is also relative.

It is universal on the earth.

·ni·ver·sal
   /ˌyunəˈvɜrsəl/ Show Spelled[yoo-nuh-vur-suhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of all or the whole: universal experience.
2.
applicable everywhere or in all cases; general: a universal cure.
3.
affecting, concerning, or involving all: universal military service.
4.
used or understood by all: a universal language.
5.
present everywhere: the universal calm of southern seas.
6.
versed in or embracing many or all skills, branches of learning, etc.: Leonardo da Vinci was a universal genius.
7.
of or pertaining to the universe, all nature, or all existing things: universal cause.
8.
characterizing all or most members of a class [i.e. the earth]; generic.
9.
Logic . (of a proposition) asserted of every member of a class [i.e. the citizens of earth].
10.
Linguistics . found in all languages or belonging to the human language faculty.
11.
Machinery . noting any of various machines, tools, or devices widely adaptable in position, range of use, etc.
12.
Metalworking .
a.
(of metal plates and shapes) rolled in a universal mill.
b.
(of a rolling mill or rolling method) having or employing vertical edging rolls.

Gravity is universal according to the dictionary- universal to the whole of the human race which now occupies planet earth.

Universal can be applied to people or things in a specific location such as the "southern seas" as illustrated in the above definition- or the earth- as in my anecdote.

 

[Luke2427]

:applause:

Sadly I found out that this site was not very edifying for me at all, like I had first hoped it would be. It is interesting at times, and I have been informed of things which can been helpful, but rarely much more. Much too often it is less about the exchange of ideas, and growing in knowledge, but instead the exchange of barbs, insults. Sadly it often feels like many come here rather than for a thirst for knowledge, but instead for the thirst to be right.

de·bate
   /dɪˈbeɪt/ Show Spelled [dih-beyt] Show IPA noun, verb, -bat·ed, -bat·ing.
–noun
1.
a discussion, as of a public question in an assembly, involving opposing viewpoints: a debate in the Senate on farm price supports.
2.
a formal contest in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.
3.
deliberation; consideration.
4.
Archaic . strife; contention.
–verb (used without object)
5.
to engage in argument or discussion, as in a legislative or public assembly: When we left, the men were still debating.
6.
to participate in a formal debate.
7.
to deliberate; consider: I debated with myself whether to tell them the truth or not.
8.
Obsolete . to fight; quarrel.
–verb (used with object)
9.
to argue or discuss (a question, issue, or the like), as in a legislative or public assembly: They debated the matter of free will.
10.
to dispute or disagree about: The homeowners debated the value of a road on the island.
11.
to engage in formal argumentation or disputation with (another person, group, etc.): Jones will debate Smith. Harvard will debate Princeton.
12.
to deliberate upon; consider: He debated his decision in the matter.
13.
Archaic . to contend for or over.

Where do you find the idea of edifying anywhere in the definition of DEBATE?

There is a fellowship forum on this very site where you can go for that.

 

[Luke2427]

We need more like you here, Tom.

I don't mind the debates so much as all the personal attacks.

I too am against the personal attacks- whether they be calling someone ignorant or arrogant or abrasive.

There are some here who cannot debate the ISSUE, but must debate/attack/condemn/insult the PERSON. There is a difference. Lately I find less actual healthy debate here and more of the other. It makes me spend more time in the fellowship forums.

Agreed.

 

[webdog]

It is universal on the earth.



Gravity is universal according to the dictionary- universal to the whole of the human race which now occupies planet earth.

Universal can be applied to people or things in a specific location such as the "southern seas" as illustrated in the above definition- or the earth- as in my anecdote.

Gravity is still relative even on earth. Gravity is different under water than it is above, different for a person free falling as opposed to having a parachute, being in a plane, etc.

 

[webdog]

This is not about "holding authority over any one". Who believes that?

This is about speaking with authority.




Authority IS the right word to describe it.

I wasn't speaking with authority, I was giving an opinion. I wasn't trying to persuade anyone.