Baptist Eschatology

[Major B]

Let me add this--I would never break fellowship over this doctrinal area--unless the person was a nut case, sitting on a box of c-rations with his AK on his lap--there are people like that....!

 

[Brother Bob]

Amils do not believe in a literal 1000-year reign, they believe that the church has superceded and replaced Israel totally, and that Israel is a "dead letter." They do not believe the church is going too conquer the world and they are post-trib, though they often don't believe in a literal 7-year tribulation period.

Put me down as leaning A-Mill, but I believe the Kingdom is Spiritual and will be delivered up to the Father in the end.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

convicted1,

You told us that, you are amill.

You say,

I believe that when time comes to an end, Jesus will come with 10,000 of His angels, and execute judgment to the Just and unjust, then we will go to be with Him in Heaven.

Let you know that, I am amill. I disagree with you.

When I was grew up, I was in Lutheran family. Lutherans are no nut on end times stuff. They just simple believe everything all will be end at the end of the world, this earth shall be burned up, then we shall be Jesus in the heaven eternality. Many Lutherans are amills. But, they have the wrong idea what the Bible actual teaching on the end times.

The Seventh Day Adventists teaching on escahtology doctrine, they believe in posttrib rapture, Christ shall come to earth at the second advent. But, the Church will dwell in the heave with Christ FOR 1000 years, while unjust are remain on earth.

No sense!

Interesting, during 17th Century, the millennial teaching was not yet existed, Church believed in second coming shall be follow at the end of the world, then the eternality come.

I read tinytim's post at topic, 'What is dispensationalism'. He said:

I am dispensational, but it has bothered me that it took 1800 yrs to systemize it I would love to find some historical proof that it was taught before Darby... If only the concepts were taught..but what I have found in history is amillennialism...even our baptist ancestors(the anabaptist) were amillenialists...This has also bothered me for a while...Why would God hide this great truth to only be brought out by Darby and Scofield? There were great minds before them...why did it take 1800 yrs?

tinytim made a good point. He is right.

I suggest you, why not you read throughout Matthew Henry Commentary. He wrote them in year between from 1690 to 1710. You can easily notice his comment sounds like posttribulational, and amill. His beliefs were much different than today's baptist eschatology doctrine.

Early baptists were all posttribs, believed in the only one future final coming at the end of the age. None of them were teaching two phases of coming, or split-comings, not till late 19th Century, thanked to 1878 Nigara Conference.

I urge you to study God's word carefully, what these actual saying. You need to depend on the Holy Spirit's guide and listening what God's Word, than what you listening to today's men's philosophy according Colossians 2:8.

I will continue discuss more on baptist eschatology later.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

thomas15,

You say, you are ex-amill, but, now you are premill.

I am curious, what things caused you to became premill?

Let you know, I am ex-premill and pretrib before. Now, I am postrib and amill. Why? Because God's Word caused me became postrib/amill.

Matthew 25:31-46; John 6:39,40,44, & 54- "LAST DAY" are the two strongest evidences of postrib and amill, which caused me left pretrib camp. I already determined follow what God's Word say than what men saying according Colossians 2:8. There are so plenty of scriptures with passages telling us that, Christ shall come again after the tribulation follow on the last day of this present age. You should read and study God's Word, and you will seeing them yourself.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

Deafposttrib;

Early baptists were all posttribs, believed in the only one future final coming at the end of the age. None of them were teaching two phases of coming, or split-comings, not till late 19th Century, thanked to 1878 Nigara Conference.

Was it John Darby who got the Mill started in the 19th Century.
Tell me, why did it take 1900 years to get it right. You say:

Early baptists were all posttribs, believed in the only one future final coming at the end of the age. None of them were teaching two phases of coming, or split-comings, not till late 19th Century, thanked to 1878 Nigara Conference.

I believe as the Early Baptist that the church will live through the tribulations and then there will be one final end. The church will be taken home to heaven, and judgement will be passed out on the world and the devil and the earth will pass away with a great noise. We do not believe the "wrath of God" and the "Trib" is the same. Church will face the Trib, for no flesh would be saved, except for the elects sake those days were shortened. The wrath is reserved for the devil, his angels, for those who worketh abomination and maketh a lie, and whosoever's name is not found written in the lamb's book of life.

If I understood you right, then I believe like the early Baptist. There will be only one more coming of Christ. I don't believe in a mill to come, I believe it is past as it says it is. Anyway, it was only "souls of the beheaded" that was in the Mill.

Convicted1 can speak for himself, but I think maybe you might of misunderstood him. I am sure he only believes in one more coming of Christ.

 

[webdog]

Pre-Mill, pre- trib for this SBC'er...

 

[Jerome]

Interesting, during 17th Century, the millennial teaching was not yet existed, Church believed in second coming shall be follow at the end of the world, then the eternality come.

Early baptists were all posttribs, believed in the only one future final coming at the end of the age. None of them were teaching two phases of coming, or split-comings, not till late 19th Century, thanked to 1878 Nigara Conference.

Yet in 1764, James Murray, in The History of Religion: Particularly of the Principal Denominations of Christians, vol. 4, p. 225, reports that:
"Many of the Baptists believe the Millenium, or the saints living and reigning with Christ upon earth 1000 years, for which there have not been wanting many judicious advocates;"

 

[convicted1]

I do believe that Jesus will come ONCE, and this is when both great and small will be judged. I believe that when God tells Jesus to go and get His children, He will come and take us to where He is. I don't believe we will be in a MK like some would suggest, but I believe that we are already in that 1,000 year period, as we speak. I know that some will jump me over this, but this literal kingdom doesn't add up to me. A Spiritual God, a Spiritual Son, and The Holy Spirit need a literal kingdom to dwell in?? Just doesn't add up to me. God doesn't DWELL in houses made with hands, nor will we dwell in a literal kingdom. We will dwell in HEAVEN, where we, as spirits, will WORSHIP God the Father, and Jesus the Son. Glory to High and Holy NAME!!

 

[EdSutton]

For specifically, Deaf Posttrib and Brother Bob.

DPT writes:

Interesting, during 17th Century, the millennial teaching was not yet existed, Church believed in second coming shall be follow at the end of the world, then the eternality come.

I read tinytim's post at topic, 'What is dispensationalism'. He said:

Quote=tinytim:
I am dispensational, but it has bothered me that it took 1800 yrs to systemize it I would love to find some historical proof that it was taught before Darby... If only the concepts were taught..but what I have found in history is amillennialism...even our baptist ancestors(the anabaptist) were amillenialists...This has also bothered me for a while...Why would God hide this great truth to only be brought out by Darby and Scofield? There were great minds before them...why did it take 1800 yrs?

tinytim made a good point. He is right.

I suggest you, why not you read throughout Matthew Henry Commentary. He wrote them in year between from 1690 to 1710. You can easily notice his comment sounds like posttribulational, and amill. His beliefs were much different than today's baptist eschatology doctrine.

Early baptists were all posttribs, believed in the only one future final coming at the end of the age. None of them were teaching two phases of coming, or split-comings, not till late 19th Century, thanked to 1878 Nigara Conference.

Both Lady Eagle, in her posts #57, 59, and 61 and I (in multiple posts, as well), have already adequately answered this allegation, and shown much of it to be false, here in this following thread:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=40633&page=1

My posts in that thread that touched on this, and corrected some misstatements (and 're-written' history) are these- #35, 38, 40, 46, 62, 67 and 69. I further noted that I did not particularly care what position one took in post # 49 and, again, post # 62.

Aslo, since you (DPt) quoted tinytim, and claimed his question was actually "a point", you might note that I also answered some of this as well, in that thread, in post # 18, referring to this, for which he thanked me, BTW, and referred him to these links -

http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=1141

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's%20Corner/Doctrines/rapture_history.htm

http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p095.html -

in answer to another question.

Brother Bob, you already know better than this about alleging or questioning that Darby started "Mill", for we had adequate discussion about it already, and I did not expect a repeating of this same comment from you, frankly.

Jerome's reference above in post # 27 is also pertinent to this post, for 1764 certainly predates someone who would not be born for another 40 years.

And one of my above referenced posts shows that one even preached "the millenial reign" right here in Central KY, and very possibly, right here in my own home church, well before 1800, as well. Not to mention that others preached this in America a century before Darby, as well.

Did any of that make it correct theology? Not necessarily, by any stretch. But it does make it historical!

Ed

 

[Pilgrimer]

Partial Preterist

I am Partial Preterist, which means I believe the only things which remain to be fulfilled are the second coming of Jesus, the great resurrection, the final judgment, the new heavens and earth and the eternal state.
Pilgrimer

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob, you already know better than this about alleging or questioning that Darby started "Mill", for we had adequate discussion about it already, and I did not expect a repeating of this same comment from you, frankly.

I know you came up with 4 who advocated a literal kingdom, but I have found nothing where it was accepted as church doctrine. Also, after St. Augustine they all disappeared into the woodwork until the 18th and 19th century.
What Deafposttrib; posted was "Baptist Doctrine".

I like what I read about it was Baptist Doctrine that the mill was Amill until around the time of Darby. I guess there was a couple a few years before him, but he is the one who caused it to catch on in the Baptist Doctrine. IMO

There was some "reason" that Justin Martyr had to "explain" his position on the literal kingdom to the church fathers, when all of them were teaching a "Spiritual Kingdom", or at least he had to explain it to someone, for we have a historical record of it.

Even Tim posted his concerns about it taking so many years before it became church doctrine, seems to me it would give you all pause anyway to think, why did it take so long to be accepted by the church?

I read tinytim's post at topic, 'What is dispensationalism'. He said:


Quote:
I am dispensational, but it has bothered me that it took 1800 yrs to systemize it I would love to find some historical proof that it was taught before Darby... If only the concepts were taught..but what I have found in history is amillennialism...even our baptist ancestors(the anabaptist) were amillenialists...This has also bothered me for a while...Why would God hide this great truth to only be brought out by Darby and Scofield? There were great minds before them...why did it take 1800 yrs?

tinytim made a good point. He is right.

It seems to me that you and Lady Eagle and all the others that fill the Baptist churches with the Mill coming would at least be concerned that it took so long to catch on as "doctrine". Think about it Ed, for hundreds and hundreds of years, it was considered a spiritual kingdom, why???

 

[Pilgrimer]

Quote: It seems to me that you and Lady Eagle and all the others that fill the Baptist churches with the Mill coming would at least be concerned that it took so long to catch on as "doctrine". Think about it Ed, for hundreds and hundreds of years, it was considered a spiritual kingdom, why???[/quote]

Hello Brother Bob. What turned me away from millennialism was taking a long, prayerful refresher course on exactly what "kingdom" Jesus preached in the Gospels.

Pilgrimer

 

[Jerome]

Hanserd Knollys, an early leader of the Baptists in England, in The World that Now is; and the World that is to Come, (1681), wrote:
"He will set up his Davidical Kingdom on Earth" p. 24.
"They shall Reign with Christ a thousand years, and that on earth" p. 29.
"After the Saints deceased are raised, and have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, shall be the general Resurrection" p. 30.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

convicted1,

You are partially correct that, you saying the kingdom of God/heaven is spiritual. I agree with you, it is spiritual. But, itself speak of salvation, eternal life, and inheritance. God is spirit. But, also, God now have flesh. Jesus Christ is the son of God. He was spirit during Old Testament, he came to earth to became man for us. He already bring kingdom to earth, it is the gospel means good news for the world.

Kingdom of God/heaven is not limited just for spiritually only. Also, it included physical too. At the second advent, Kingdom of God shall be unity both spiritual and physical together become perfect froever and ever.

Many saints who died and now in the heaven with God, where New Jersualem is. But, they will not stay up there as what Lacy Evans or James Newman saying in other topic. Staying in the third heaven is a temporary during in this present age. At the end of the age, heavens and a old earth shall be burned away. SO, God will create new heavens and a new earth. God will send New Jerusalem descend from heaven(third heaven), down land on the new earth. We all shall dwell with Christ on new earth forever and ever. Read in Revelation chapter 21 and 22.

There will be lot of activities on new earth during eternality age. Not just standing in the clouds, sing the songs, praising, worshipping the King. Chatting each other. We will do something many things of activities on new eart. We shall reign with Christ on new earth forever and ever.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

There will be lot of activities on new earth during eternality age. Not just standing in the clouds, sing the songs, praising, worshipping the King. Chatting each other. We will do something many things of activities on new eart. We shall reign with Christ on new earth forever and ever.

In Christ

Well, you use the early Baptist for the mill but not for the new heaven and new earth. We either accept it as spiritual or we don't. We can't divide it up as we want.

BBob,

 

[JustChristian]

I stand on the Amill side. I believe that Christ will return ONCE as someone else stressed previously. Jesus said that He came to establish a Heavenly kingdom not an earthly one.

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

Amillennial.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Bbob,

Then, what Christians will do on new earth? Nothing?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

Bbob,

Then, what Christians will do on new earth? Nothing?

As you have quoted the early fathers who believed the mill was spiritual, so did they believe the new heaven and new earth are spiritual. Many believe it is after you accept Christ and is now happening as Jesus said, My Kingdom is within you.
I believe we will spend eternity where God is now in Heaven. For the scripture says the Kingdom shall be delivered up to the Father.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I would like to ask you a question, is our bodies a part of the "old earth", were we created of the earth?

1Cr 15:47The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

Also, the First Heaven and the second Heaven have been seen of man, but the Third Heaven where God is the vulture eye has not seen, and nothing unclean has entered that Heaven.

DPT; the new earth will not have the sea, it will not have the sun and moon and stars. It is something as we have not known. It certainly is not going to be businesses, ice cream parlors etc. I read where a part of the earth will be made over new and they make up a City with twelve foundations, and twelve gates of pearl, a wall of Jasper and the light of that City will be God and the Lamb, the Temple of that City will be God and the Lamb. There will be no more death or tears, for all the former things will have passed away and behold He said, I will make all things new. Oh, they have a name also, called "New Jerusalem", the bride of the Lamb. Why is it coming down from God out of Heaven and He is not with it, to get their bodies they left behind.
Many men have surmised how it will be, and I am among them. I believe Jesus will come and All that are in the grave will come forth, the just will take a heavenly flight, the rest will stand before the GWT and be judged and cast into a lake of Fire along with the devil, his angels, them that maketh abomination and them that make a lie, and whosoever's name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Then Heaven will speak and say it is finished. The earth will melt with fervant heat and pass away with a great noise.

I don't get into this much DPT; for there are so many minds on it. I hear they even have all the material to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, as if God needs their help. People are making the same mistake today as they made when Jesus come. They are looking for a literal Kingom. I am looking to go where the 4 and 20 Elders are.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I've been a Christian (Baptist type) for 55 yerars
(April 1952 to July 2007). The first 12 years
I believed that it was good that God was going
to get even with all the bad guys - much as
it had been believed from 33AD to 1964AD.

In 1964 AD Russian and the USA had enough
nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them
so they could wipe out all life on earth.
Then it was obvious that humans could do all
the bad things in Revelation to themselves
(well, except for the eternal lake of fire stuff) -
God would intervene in mankind's affairs and
save them from self destruction.

Where was this insight from 33AD to 1964?
God knew, mankind didn't know - that is where
it was.