Baptist History and the Lack of Concern

[CarpentersApprentice]

I will try to make this post somewhat more productive.

CarpentersApprentice, you should take a look at the works of James R. Graves, D.B. Ray, J.M. Carroll (trail of blood author I believe), G.H. Orchard, J.M. Cramp, and S.H. Ford to name a few. Others that share a very similar view are Thomas Crosby, Issac Backus, A.H. Newman, David Benedict, Thomas Armitage, and William Cathcart. Hope that helps.:thumbs:

I am familiar with them. At least to the extent that their work appears on this web site: http://www.reformedreader.org/

Patterson's critique of their scholarship is compelling.

(Sidebar. If I recall correctly, Isaac Backus' work - A History of New England with Particular Reference to the Denomination of Christians Called Baptists - covered only Baptists in America. No discussion from him of Baptists going back to NT times.)

CA

 

[Bro. Williams]

I am familiar with them. At least to the extent that their work appears on this web site: http://www.reformedreader.org/

Patterson's critique of their scholarship is compelling.

(Sidebar. If I recall correctly, Isaac Backus' work - A History of New England with Particular Reference to the Denomination of Christians Called Baptists - covered only Baptists in America. No discussion from him of Baptists going back to NT times.)

CA

Thanks for the website, I will try to look into it at a date when I have more time to not just "scan" it.

I have not had the chance to read Backus yet, although that is one on the list. I do know though, that the book mentioned is not his only work, to name a few I found:

1741 The Diary of Isaac Backus. Backus, who would become one of the colonial period's leading Baptist authorities, begins a chronicle of his daily life.

1771 "The Doctrine of Sovereign Grace." The widely traveled Baptist minister delivers a sermon, in his trademark clear and powerful language, that grapples with the meaning of grace.

1773 "An Appeal to the Public for Religious Liberty." This important sermon helps clarify and define the Baptist faith in the late colonial era.

1777 History of New England, with Particular Reference to the Denomination of Christians Called Baptists. Backus publishes the first installment of the three-volume series (to be completed in 1796) of notable early historical scholarship, still important today as a source on colonial New England.

1784 History of New England, with Particular Reference to the Denomination of Christians Called Baptists. The second volume of the three-volume series is published. The first volume of this important source on colonial New England had been published in 1777.

I included the book mentioned on the end for the purpose of noting the different volumes and publishing dates.

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

I just called out Backus because you mentioned him among the successionist writers, which - to my knowledge - he was not.

Hope you take the chance to look at the Patterson and McGoldrick books.

CA

 

[Bro. Williams]

I just called out Backus because you mentioned him among the successionist writers, which - to my knowledge - he was not.

Hope you take the chance to look at the Patterson and McGoldrick books.

CA

I have diligently searched in regards to Backus and successionism. Thus far I have been able to find one source that says he is (which thus far has revealed no quote though, I am still scanning). At the same rate, I have not been able to find anyone to say that he discredited it. In the long run it probably doesn't matter, for I am sure I could find a book that says he was pro and you could find one that says he was against. Uncanny how that thing oft plays out.

I have yet had the chance to check out the books of Patterson and McGolrick, being it is Sunday and that is usually a busy day. I will give an effort though.

 

[Hardsheller]

So who are the "true" Baptists today?

And what is the "true Gospel" that Baptists have preserved since the NT era?

 

[Bro. Williams]

So who are the "true" Baptists today?

And what is the "true Gospel" that Baptists have preserved since the NT era?

The true Baptists would be the ones closest in adherence to the NT.

The Gospel is still, as always I Corinthians 15:1-4.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I received, just yesterday, the book Compendium of Baptist History by J.A. Shackelford written in 1892. He deals with church succession in one chapter. I am reviewing the book for possible use in our Bible College.

 

[Jerome]

I have diligently searched in regards to Backus and successionism. Thus far I have been able to find one source that says he is (which thus far has revealed no quote though, I am still scanning). At the same rate, I have not been able to find anyone to say that he discredited it. In the long run it probably doesn't matter, for I am sure I could find a book that says he was pro and you could find one that says he was against. Uncanny how that thing oft plays out.

Here is what he actually wrote:

Backus's A letter to the Reverend Mr. Benjamin Lord of Norwich (1764).
on pp. 8-9:
"this puts the succession where it ought to be, in the line of divine truth"
....
"And where is the protestant in the world, that will pretend that there has been an uninterrupted succession of ordained ministers clear down from the apostles, who have none of them grossly perverted the gospel of Christ?"
....
"I know 'tis pretended that those people at Munster, were the first that appeared against infant baptism; but that is sufficiently proved by many to be a groundless pretence. Mr. Crosby, in the preface to the first volume of his history of the English baptists, has produced authorities from paedobaptist writers, of no less than seven other different periods of time, which they assign for the original of this opinion."

Backus's History of New England, vol. I (1777), pp. 106-107:
"This Baptist church at Providence appears to be the second distinct society of that denomination in all the British empire. There had been many of them intermixed with other societies from their first coming out of Popery, but their first distinct church in our nation was formed out of the independent church in London, whereof Mr. Henry Jacob was pastor from 1616 to 1624, when he went to Virginia, and Mr. John Lathrop was chosen in his room. Prince's Chronology But nine years after, "several persons in the society, finding that the congregation kept not to their first principles of separation, and being also convinced, that baptism was not to be administered to infants, but such only as professed faith in Christ," desired and obtained liberty, and formed themselves into a distinct church, Sept. 12, 1633, having Mr. John Spisbury for their minister. ...Crosby's History, vol. I, p. 148, 149."

 

[Bro. Williams]

Here is what he actually wrote:

Backus's A letter to the Reverend Mr. Benjamin Lord of Norwich (1764).
on pp. 8-9:
"this puts the succession where it ought to be, in the line of divine truth"
....
"And where is the protestant in the world, that will pretend that there has been an uninterrupted succession of ordained ministers clear down from the apostles, who have none of them grossly perverted the gospel of Christ?"
....
"I know 'tis pretended that those people at Munster, were the first that appeared against infant baptism; but that is sufficiently proved by many to be a groundless pretence. Mr. Crosby, in the preface to the first volume of his history of the English baptists, has produced authorities from paedobaptist writers, of no less than seven other different periods of time, which they assign for the original of this opinion."

Backus's History of New England, vol. I (1777), pp. 106-107:
"This Baptist church at Providence appears to be the second distinct society of that denomination in all the British empire. There had been many of them intermixed with other societies from their first coming out of Popery, but their first distinct church in our nation was formed out of the independent church in London, whereof Mr. Henry Jacob was pastor from 1616 to 1624, when he went to Virginia, and Mr. John Lathrop was chosen in his room. Prince's Chronology But nine years after, "several persons in the society, finding that the congregation kept not to their first principles of separation, and being also convinced, that baptism was not to be administered to infants, but such only as professed faith in Christ," desired and obtained liberty, and formed themselves into a distinct church, Sept. 12, 1633, having Mr. John Spisbury for their minister. ...Crosby's History, vol. I, p. 148, 149."

Thank you for the info.

 

[Bro. Williams]

To those from KY: James Beller will be speaking in or close to Ky on these three dates. These are soon, it would be worth the drive.

Monday, August 6, 2007, 7:00 pm, Boeke Road Baptist Church , 2601 S. Boeke Road , Evansville , IN , 47714 , Pastor Gayle Russ, 812-479-5342

Tuesday, August 7, 2007, 7:00 pm, Lincoln Trail Baptist Church, 4463 Bardstown Road, Elizabethtown, KY, 42701, Pastor Jeff Harris, 270-360-1053

Wednesday, August 8, 2007, 7:00 pm, Lighthouse Baptist Church , 105 Shun Pike, Nicholasville , KY , 40356 , Pastor Dan Barnes, 859-887-4215

 

[Hardsheller]

The true Baptists would be the ones closest in adherence to the NT.

The Gospel is still, as always I Corinthians 15:1-4.

I should have been more direct.

Do Baptists who believe in an unbroken succession today hold to the same theological views concerning soteriology?

If it is varied has this always been the case?

 

[Bro. Williams]

I should have been more direct.

Do Baptists who believe in an unbroken succession today hold to the same theological views concerning soteriology?

If it is varied has this always been the case?

1st question: Mostly as I have seen yes.

2nd: Only when the gospel of Christ is rejected or smoethered by the insisting works plays a part.

 

[baptistteacher]

Thanks for bringing this up. I heard Bro. Beller speak this past spring at Heartland BBC here in Oklahoma City. That morning he was giving what he called a "briefing" on Baptist history and related it to current issues. It was basically the same as the book mentioned in the OP, "The Coming Destruction of the Baptist People". I did obtain this book, budget constraints kept me from getting any of the others.

I heartily recommend going to hear him, even if you think you won't agree with all of his points. You will have food for thought. He gives a very clear and precise presentation.

Part of the presentation deals with "Soul Liberty" and the Baptist influence on the Constitution of the United States. [Not the "Christian" influence, the "Baptist" influence.] It has been a Baptist principle that I cannot be compelled by the sword to change my heart's belief, not a principle of the Major Christian Denominations.

 

[Bro. Williams]

Thanks for bringing this up. I heard Bro. Beller speak this past spring at Heartland BBC here in Oklahoma City. That morning he was giving what he called a "briefing" on Baptist history and related it to current issues. It was basically the same as the book mentioned in the OP, "The Coming Destruction of the Baptist People". I did obtain this book, budget constraints kept me from getting any of the others.

I heartily recommend going to hear him, even if you think you won't agree with all of his points. You will have food for thought. He gives a very clear and precise presentation.

Part of the presentation deals with "Soul Liberty" and the Baptist influence on the Constitution of the United States. [Not the "Christian" influence, the "Baptist" influence.] It has been a Baptist principle that I cannot be compelled by the sword to change my heart's belief, not a principle of the Major Christian Denominations.

Thanks for the reply and the info. I recently purchased, "America in Crimson Red", but have not had the chance to read it yet.... I will try to give an update after the conference in E-town or after I read the book one.


I would also like to add again:

To those from KY: James Beller will be speaking in or close to Ky on these three dates. These are soon, it would be worth the drive.

Monday, August 6, 2007, 7:00 pm, Boeke Road Baptist Church , 2601 S. Boeke Road , Evansville , IN , 47714 , Pastor Gayle Russ, 812-479-5342

Tuesday, August 7, 2007, 7:00 pm, Lincoln Trail Baptist Church, 4463 Bardstown Road, Elizabethtown, KY, 42701, Pastor Jeff Harris, 270-360-1053

Wednesday, August 8, 2007, 7:00 pm, Lighthouse Baptist Church , 105 Shun Pike, Nicholasville , KY , 40356 , Pastor Dan Barnes, 859-887-4215

 

[baptistteacher]

Bro. Beller's books are available here:
http://www.21tnt.com/pfp/

 

[Bro. Williams]

Thank you BaptistTeacher for that last update.

I also wanted to mention again the dates of Beller in KY for those on here from the Bluegrass State.

To those from KY: James Beller will be speaking in or close to Ky on these three dates. These are soon, it would be worth the drive.

Tuesday, August 7, 2007, 7:00 pm, Lincoln Trail Baptist Church, 4463 Bardstown Road, Elizabethtown, KY, 42701, Pastor Jeff Harris, 270-360-1053

Wednesday, August 8, 2007, 7:00 pm, Lighthouse Baptist Church , 105 Shun Pike, Nicholasville , KY , 40356 , Pastor Dan
Barnes, 859-887-4215

I will be heading to the one in Elizabethtown tonight, Lord willing.

 

[Bro. Williams]

Just a note to say that the meeting was excellent last night, if anyone is able to see Beller tonight in Ky it would be wirth your drive. Or, if you happen upon a meeting in your own state as well. amen and amen.

 

[Timsings]

. . .The classic standard textbooks for Baptist history are The Baptist Heritage by H. Leon McBeth and History of the Baptists by Robert Torbet. Both of these begin with Baptist history in the 1600's.

The Baptist Historical Society published a three volume History of the English Baptists, General Editor B.R. White. Volume 1 begins in the 17th century, not in the 1st.

Typical of the major Baptist bodies is this statement from the Baptist History and Heritage Society: "Our best historical evidence says that Baptists came into existence in England in the early seventeenth century...." http://www.baptisthistory.org/baptistbeginnings.htm . . .

I have just stumbled on this thread, so forgive my late additions. I would like to recommend three books that I have not seen mentioned in the thread. First is The Baptist Identity: Four Fragile Freedoms by Walter Shurden (Smyth & Helwys, 1993). The four freedoms are Bible freedom, soul freedom, church freedom, and religious freedom. The book also includes as appendices several documents related to these freedoms from different Baptist bodies.

Second is Baptist Ways: A History by Bill J. Leonard (Judson Press, 2003). The very first chapter has a section on theories of Baptist origins, so it should provide some information relelvant to the discussion on this thread.

Third is Baptist Roots: A Reader in the Theology of a Christian People by Curtis W. Freeman, James William McClendon, Jr., and C. Rosalee Velloso da Silva (Judson Press, 1999). This is a reader of primary sources beginning in about 1440. There are introductions to each period discussed and other resources.

I have connections of at least a minimal sort to each of these, so I can heartily recommend them to you. I took one of Shurden's classes when I was a student at Carson-Newman College in the early 1970's. I have met Bill Leonard and heard him speak on several occasions. And, though I did not have a chance to meet McClendon before he died, I have read him extensively, particularly his baptist systematic theology (Ethics, 1986; Doctrine, 1994; Witness, 2000; all Abingdon Press). McClendon is the most difficult to read, but he is worth it as are the others.

Tim Reynolds

 

[Jules80]

This books sounds very interesting, does anyone know where I can attain a copy?

 

[Bro. Williams]

Have you tried to seach for them on google.com yet? Usually one can find a link to such resources.