Baptist London Confession?

[Squire Robertsson]

An example of how the non-Cals use the NHCF is its treatment in Hiscox's New Directory of Baptist Churches. Mind you I wrote outside of the Reformed Baptist World. I didn't use the descriptive non-Cal. In my taxonomy, all Reformed Baptists are Calvinists. But not all Calvinistic Baptists are Reformed.

While the New Hampshire is not as Calvinistic as the 1689 LBC, it is a Calvinistic document. I cannot imagine that being acceptable to non-Calvinistic churches but I may be wrong.

 

[Covenanter]

An example of how the non-Cals use the NHCF is its treatment in Hiscox's New Directory of Baptist Churches. Mind you I wrote outside of the Reformed Baptist World. I didn't use the descriptive non-Cal. In my taxonomy, all Reformed Baptists are Calvinists. But not all Calvinistic Baptists are Reformed.

Until the quincentenary I considered myself a reformed Baptist. Having read and heard the eulogies for Luther, and the persecution of Baptists, that has changed, but not to switch to Calvinistic.

Any suggestions?

 

[rlvaughn]

While the New Hampshire is not as Calvinistic as the 1689 LBC, it is a Calvinistic document. I cannot imagine that being acceptable to non-Calvinistic churches but I may be wrong.

I agree with you that the New Hampshire Confession is a "Calvinistic" document (e.g., to me, a close reading of it puts regeneration before repentance & faith). Apparently numerous folks do not read it that way. I personally know a number of churches and local associations that are "non-Calvinist" but that have the New Hampshire Confession as their statement of faith.

 

[Reformed]

I personally know a number of churches and local associations that are "non-Calvinist" but that have the New Hampshire Confession as their statement of faith.

Oh well. Either they really have not drilled down on its theology, or they have some other reason for their subscription.

 

[Covenanter]

.... we're Baptist, so we believe what Baptists believe, in any case we leave all that to the Pastor, or the officers of the denomination.....
And we trust in Jesus Christ as our Lord & Saviour, & seek to walk in his ways.

I wonder how many church goers, church members, understand in detail what their church believes. It's important they believe for salvation & grow in grace & the knowledge of God, & maintain a spiritual life.

That's one reason why I lilke the FIEC basis of faith - all 9 points, which can be taught & believed.

 

[Yeshua1]

An example of how the non-Cals use the NHCF is its treatment in Hiscox's New Directory of Baptist Churches. Mind you I wrote outside of the Reformed Baptist World. I didn't use the descriptive non-Cal. In my taxonomy, all Reformed Baptists are Calvinists. But not all Calvinistic Baptists are Reformed.

There are many more calvinist Baptists than reformed, as calvinist hold pretty much to Salvation of reformed, but Reformed also hold to full blown Covenant Theology, and Confession of Faith!

 

[Yeshua1]

What is interesting is when those holding now to a more reformed viewpoint are in Baptist Church that would be non confessional!

 

[Reformed]

There are many more calvinist Baptists than reformed, as calvinist hold pretty much to Salvation of reformed, but Reformed also hold to full blown Covenant Theology, and Confession of Faith!

I agree. Confessional Reformed Baptists are a subset of Monergistic Baptists.

 

[Reformed]

I wonder how many church goers, church members, understand in detail what their church believes. It's important they believe for salvation & grow in grace & the knowledge of God, & maintain a spiritual life.

About ten years ago my former church considered adopting the 1689 LBC ("the Confession") as our doctrinal statement. I was an elder in the church at the time and began a nearly year-long class on the Confession. I went chapter by chapter through the Confession; discussing the theological conclusions of the framers and fielding questions from church members in attendance. At the end of the class, the elders presented their recommendation to adopt the Confession as our church doctrinal statement to the members and allowed a 30-day period before the vote for questions. At the end of the 30-days, the membership voted unanimously to adopt the Confession as our doctrinal statement.

I think it is a good idea for churches to go through their doctrinal statement periodically with their members to make sure everyone know what they believe and why they believe it. Members change over time and sometimes churches stray away from previous beliefs.

 

[rlvaughn]

Oh well. Either they really have not drilled down on its theology, or they have some other reason for their subscription.

One reason -- perhaps the main one -- is history. That is, at some point in the past the church or association was more Calvinistic and changed over the years to being less Calvinistic. Even though they changed, they did not change the confession they had (and possibly now just reinterpret it so that it means what they currently believe).

 

[Reformed]

One reason -- perhaps the main one -- is history. That is, at some point in the past the church or association was more Calvinistic and changed over the years to being less Calvinistic. Even though they changed, they did not change the confession they had (and possibly now just reinterpret it so that it means what they currently believe).

That is very possible. In many churches, it takes a super majority of the members to be in attendance to vote on a doctrinal change. It is easier to keep the status quo and just change around it.

 

[rsr]

One reason -- perhaps the main one -- is history. That is, at some point in the past the church or association was more Calvinistic and changed over the years to being less Calvinistic. Even though they changed, they did not change the confession they had (and possibly now just reinterpret it so that it means what they currently believe).

I think there's certainly a lot to that. Truth is, IMO, many, many Baptist churches don't give much thought to their confessions, if they adopt them at all, and they do not expect members to adhere to them — until there's a big controversy.

The New Hampshire may be popular in some limited circles, but it is really Calvinistic in soteriology, though of the Fullerist "duty faith" variety. I cannot see how an Arminian can affirm its soteriology.

(The only local church I know of that affirms the New Hampshire is an independent Baptist church that is TULIP and also affirms the Textus Receptus and is modified KJV-only.)

I am more familiar with Southern Baptist churches, which quite often offer the Baptist Faith and Message as their statement of faith.

The American Baptist Churches in the USA are allergic to statements of faith, preferring to have a statement of identity. The Free Will Baptists affirm a frankly Arminian soteriology.

The BF&M, having gradually departed from the New Hampshire upon which it is based, is quite capable of being accepted by either Calvinists or Arminians. But not semi-Pelagians.

In my half century of being a Baptist, I have never been asked to affirm a confession. I attend a church whose confession I do not really care for, being Augustinian in soteriology and rejecting some of the recent additions to the confession. Somehow we get along.

 

[Reformed]

In my half century of being a Baptist, I have never been asked to affirm a confession.

Actually, most Reformed Baptist churches do not ask prospective members to "affirm a confession". Typically they ask prospective members to agree to be taught from a confessional perspective and not to advocate contrary teachings.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually, most Reformed Baptist churches do not ask prospective members to "affirm a confession". Typically they ask prospective members to agree to be taught from a confessional perspective and not to advocate contrary teachings.

i have had discussions with some who would not see anytrhing other than the Amil as supported by any Confession, but truth is that many Reformed, like Spurgeon, were Historic preMil, and mor einteresting, some Presbyterians in the past seemed to be reformed and at least tolerant of some form of Dispy theology.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree. Confessional Reformed Baptists are a subset of Monergistic Baptists.

Where the fun really starts is when a really reformed and someone like a Dr Macarthur are trying to see common ground, as Dr mac is a very strong Monergisitic and Dispy believer!

 

[rlvaughn]

The New Hampshire may be popular in some limited circles, but it is really Calvinistic in soteriology, though of the Fullerist "duty faith" variety. I cannot see how an Arminian can affirm its soteriology.

(The only local church I know of that affirms the New Hampshire is an independent Baptist church that is TULIP and also affirms the Textus Receptus and is modified KJV-only.)

The circles with which I am familiar would be unaffiliated Missionary Baptist, tending toward Landmark ecclesiology, and amillennial in eschatology. There are quite a few such bodies -- but clearly limited and few in the grand scheme of all things Baptist in the U.S. -- that have the New Hampshire Confession as their articles of faith. It is not usually (but perhaps occasionally) labeled as the New Hampshire Confession. Mostly the association minute just has "Articles of Faith" followed by the 18 articles from that confession. It is common to hear them referred to as "the 18 articles." [They definitely will not identify themselves as Arminian, but have two strong outside petals of the tulip, while rejecting or modifying the three inner stigma.)

Several years ago I visited an association in south Mississippi which a Primitive Baptist friend had identified as being Calvinist. In fact, though their articles of faith (not New Hampshire) asserted the five points of Calvinism, they had long since left any vestiges of unconditional election, limited atonement or irresistible grace. They had uniquely learned to reinterpret their statement of faith so it identified what they currently believed.

 

[Reformed]

The circles with which I am familiar would be unaffiliated Missionary Baptist, tending toward Landmark ecclesiology, and amillennial in eschatology. There are quite a few such bodies -- but clearly limited and few in the grand scheme of all things Baptist in the U.S. -- that have the New Hampshire Confession as their articles of faith. It is not usually (but perhaps occasionally) labeled as the New Hampshire Confession. Mostly the association minute just has "Articles of Faith" followed by the 18 articles from that confession. It is common to hear them referred to as "the 18 articles." [They definitely will not identify themselves as Arminian, but have two strong outside petals of the tulip, while rejecting or modifying the three inner stigma.)

Several years ago I visited an association in south Mississippi which a Primitive Baptist friend had identified as being Calvinist. In fact, though their articles of faith (not New Hampshire) asserted the five points of Calvinism, they had long since left any vestiges of unconditional election, limited atonement or irresistible grace. They had uniquely learned to reinterpret their statement of faith so it identified what they currently believed.

That is pretty much in keeping with my thoughts about churches that believe contrary to their stated beliefs. While this is a bit off topic; many churches have a lifespan, with significant changes taking place during that lifespan.

 

[Greektim]

Merry Christmas to all:

I had a thought that I might do a little historical survey (please feel free to move this in needs be?).

Who here on the BB have;

1. Read the London Baptist Confession 1689;

2. Know of the London Baptist Confession 1689;

3. Know how it shaped the English Baptist or English Baptist shaped it and further the Theology of the early Baptists in American, especially those who were Particular Redemption.

I am sure that I will be disappointed with the survey. But, next to the Bible, it is seminal to Baptist life as are Pilgrim's Progress and The Fundamentals.

Get back to me now real soon y'all.

rd

Fellow confessional RB here. Where are all the RB here located? I'm in Roanoke, VA.

 

[Rippon]

Dr mac is a very strong Monergisitic and Dispy believer!

Dr. MacArthur describes himself as a "leaky Dispensationalist."

 

[Yeshua1]

Dr. MacArthur describes himself as a "leaky Dispensationalist."

Some would call him "confused reformed"