Baptist preachers and teachers What will you do if...?

[Jailminister]

No problem in what you posted. I know what I will do, because they are already telling us what not to preach or where not to preach and I am doing it anyway. So my mind is made up. My question is what will the members of this board do? Some have answered it directly. Thanks.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Jailminister:
I would rather this topic not get into the false doctrine of separation of church and state...

I don't consider a Baptist Distinctive to be false doctrine. In fact, it's a requirement of being Baptist, as surely as Believer's Baptism.

If you consider this to be false doctrine, you're not a Baptist.

 

[Gib]

Jail, What do you think they will do?

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Originally posted by Jailminister:
...they are already telling us what not to preach or where not to preach...

Three questions Jailminister:

1. Who is "they?"

2. What have they told us not to preach?

3. Where have they told us not to preach?

Joshua

 

[td]

I think we are seeing some of this now. My boss was asked by the BIG BOSS to give the blessing before a meal at an employee gathering to which he agreed. However, just before the gathering he was told not to say "in Jesus name". In this day and age, you can pray in the name of anyone or anything as long as it's not Jesus.

 

[Rev. Joshua]

td,

But that's not any kind of universal or legal prohibition against the free exercise of religion. A Christian boss could have just as easily told a Muslim not to mention Mohammed or refer to God as Allah.

Joshua

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Originally posted by Jailminister:
I would rather this topic not get into the false doctrine of separation of church and state, because we see the famine of God's word on the horizon.

False doctrine? Not according to John 18:36.

Will you follow the authorites or will you do something else?

Acts 5:29 says that we follow God.


Does great responsibility come with great freedom? 1Corinthians 8:9 says it does.

Seperation of church and state is very much relative to this discussion. It has always been under theocracies that Christianity suffers the most persecution. Even if they start off with "true religion", they have always fallen into apostacy. Biblical examples are there in abundance if you would like to see them.

Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. -- George Santayana

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Johnv:
I don't consider a Baptist Distinctive to be false doctrine. In fact, it's a requirement of being Baptist, as surely as Believer's Baptism.

If you consider this to be false doctrine, you're not a Baptist.

While seperation of church and state in the classic sense is a true Baptist Distinctive, It is not a doctrine. I have no desire to see the Baptist church run the government (we have a tough enough time with small groups of very independent people). The church as an organization should not run the government but individual Baptists practicing true Christianity would certainly improve things, unless, you don't believe that Christians are in actuality the salt of the earth. The infamous wall is fine if it keeps the state from interfering with me but not if it keeps me from interfering with the state AS A CHRISTIAN in a CHRISTIAN manner. If I have to down play my Christianlty in order to participate then that wall has become a wall of repression.

 

[Jailminister]

Wow lots of responses. Well I will try to respond:

John V said:I don't consider a Baptist Distinctive to be false doctrine. In fact, it's a requirement of being Baptist, as surely as Believer's Baptism.If you consider this to be false doctrine, you're not a Baptist
Well JohnV I hate to disappoint you, but I was born a baptist, then I was born again and chose to stay a baptist. I don't know how many times I have to explain this, but here I go again. THE STATE IS NOT SUPPOSE TO BE IN THE CHURCH, BUT THE CHURCH IS ABLE AND SHOULD BE IN THE STATE. As long as we are in this Constituional republic, established by God, for His people, then we are can have part in it and even promote our beliefs, just not force them


Gib Asked: Jail, What do you think they will do?

Well Gib, I believe and pray that this can be worked out, but understand that in these last days, great delusions are everywhere and apostacy is growing, so a great fallen away must take place. There will be a remainent that will remain faithful until the end and Jesus comes back.
irRev Joshua asked: Three questions Jailminister:

1. Who is "they?"
They are those that have authority for a while and are under control by ungodly spirits

2. What have they told us not to preach?
Prayer removed from schools, NO Bibles in schools,streetpreachers are being arrested weekly now for streetpreaching which used to be applauded. There have been churches taken over by authorties and sold. "HATE SPEECH LAWS" And the list goes on.

3. Where have they told us not to preach?
We are told often to go get a permit to preach on the street. Now they are trying to come up with criminal charges to keep us off. By the way we are in public areas,not on private areas ot blocking streets. We are legal, but they hate us.


Clint quotes: John 18:36: Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
I went ahead and posted the scripture. Your conclusion is not correct. The Bible also said in Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. As long as God will let us we must earnestly contend Yes Clint we are in this world, just not of this world, but we are to occupy. We occupy by standing, involving ourselves and our beliefs in state affairs.

I hope these will help

 

[stubbornkelly]

Prayer removed from schools, NO Bibles in schools

That's a load of misinformation, if not intentional lies. Kids and teachers can pray and have (and read) Bibles in the school building. Neither have bene "removed." There has been modification in how they can be practiced, as well tere should have been. Teachers should not be leading their students in prayer as part of the school day, nor should students be permitted to read their Bibles while they should be in class.

I'm curious about the streetpreaching, though. My hometown has instituted laws barring people from soliciting on the medians and sidewalks, which has stopped some religious organizations from spreading their message using that as a means, and I just wonder how many of the arrests are due to similar laws, or laws against disturbing the peace. That's genuine curiosity, not a dig.

As long as your beliefs don't violate the basic rights of others, as granted to us by our Constitution, then yes, you should involve them in government. But I think you'll find it difficult to find something that has its basis solely in Scripture that can stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Jailminister]

SK said: That's a load of misinformation, if not intentional lies. Kids and teachers can pray and have (and read) Bibles in the school building. Neither have bene "removed." There has been modification in how they can be practiced, as well tere should have been. Teachers should not be leading their students in prayer as part of the school day, nor should students be permitted to read their Bibles while they should be in class.

Kelly, you might need to research this a little more. There are thousands of examples of bibles and organized praying as well as using Jesus name beening removed from schools. In 1990 Houston Indep. School Dist. In Houston, Texas went into every school library and removed every bible, they took them out and burned them. They left the ones on witchcraft, but removed the bibles. There are lots of cases where teachers have been barred from even having a bible on their desk. Yes kelly this has happened and with this ungodly buch in control now it will continue most likely.

I'm curious about the streetpreaching, though. My hometown has instituted laws barring people from soliciting on the medians and sidewalks, which has stopped some religious organizations from spreading their message using that as a means, and I just wonder how many of the arrests are due to similar laws, or laws against disturbing the peace. That's genuine curiosity, not a dig.

For some good info on this go to www.streetpreachersfellowship.com
There are many examples that you will not find at that web site, for instance this past Sunday the police in Henderson, Texas tried their best to arrest us for street preaching, but the best they could do is get our name and address and said they will summon us to court. What that means is they will try to find some way to stop us.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Just reading this thread reminds me that even though we may disagree, NNE has their "head in the ground" and not realizing that there is a problem.

While Jeffersonian democracy (NOT the Constitution) wanted separation of Church from State, modern liberals (ala ACLU) want to expand that to separation of GOD or MORALITY from State.

Jailminister is correct in that we DO have a problem. Maybe not as grave as painted - nobody has told me what to do or say - but I see it coming.

Ask our Canadian friends about not being able to preach the Bible because of "hate speech" rules.

 

[stubbornkelly]

Do we really need to rehash the Canada situation? There are specific things outlawed by the hate speech law, such as "inciting to violence," and things of that nature. Speaking one's opinion about "certain things" is not illegal, at least not according to the version of the bill I read.

Jailminister, I have no doubt that there have been a few cases in which the tale you told has been replicated. However, that is not law of the land, nor the generalization you made it out to be. As I said, there are specifics to what is and is not allowed, but it's simply untrue to say that the Bible and prayer have been "taken out of the schools." They have not. The misunderstanding of the law by a few does not back up your statements.

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Jailminister,

Do you think streetpreaching falls under constitutionally protected speech? It's always struck me as rude, intrusive, and inappropriate; and laws which forbid it are not banning the free exercise of religion; they are improving quality of life.

Any religious group can meet in someone's home or in a building that they have rented or purchased and preach whatever they like.

Joshua

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Excerpted from www.jailministers.com:

We believe the Holy Bible to be “The Holy Scriptures” as set forth in 2 Timothy 3;15, and as such are “given by inspiration of God” (vs. 16), and therefore infallible, perfect, without error and Holy. By Holy Bible we mean that collection of sixty six books “containing the Old and New Testaments translated out of the Original tongues and with the former translations diligently compared and revised by His Majesty’s command and appointed to be read in churches”, commonly called the King James Bible, or Authorized Version of 1611 A.D.

What was His Majesty's opinion on street preaching? How would the church which produced said "Authorized" version feel about your doctirne? If you value His Majesty so much, why are you arguing for the Constituional protections of a nation which overthrew his descendant's monarchy.

9. Open Rebuke.
We believe that “open rebuke is better than secret love” (Proverbs 27:5), and that the blame for the wicked condition of society is totally on the record of Christian ministers who say they love everyone, but openly rebuke no one. As preachers, we are commanded to “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine” (2 Timothy 4:2), and in so doing, “endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry” (vs. 5). We believe the obedience to the former (vs.2) always results in the latter (vs. 5), and that such enduring of “afflictions” is part and parcel of the “full proof of thy ministry” (see 2 Corinthians 6:4, 5). The Bible placing such ministerial rebukes and reproofs within the work of an evangelists (2 Timothy 4:2-5), it defines the arena for our rebukes and reproofs to be among the lost and wicked world. Fear of doing that, silences the majority of Christian ministers, and hides them and their preaching within the safety of their church buildings. We believe it is the sin of cowardice and dereliction of duty to God to only correct sin amongst the saints, while allowing wickedness to take over our nation. Accordingly, we believe it paramount to the call to preach, that we openly rebuke sin wherever we find it wrought of men, and that for the preachers to cease from openly rebuking sin, creates a society “that cannot cease from sin” (2 Peter 2:14).

10. The Calling Out and Naming of Sin.
We believe that a preacher cannot preach against sin without naming it and calling it for what it is. In like reason, a preacher’s rebuke of sin is worthless on its face, when he cannot personally address the sinners that committed it. To rebuke sin and not the sinner is the generalized ministration of cowards, who for want of fear, preach against things and not people, against actions and not actors, who preach against the committing of sin, but cannot preach to the person committing it. Accordingly, it is the belief of the Fellowship and its members that true Bible preaching cannot be done without naming the sin as well as the sinner, and will stand to the scriptures in support of its members before the saints, and the courts of justice (see Matthew 23:13-17, 23-33/ James 4:4/ Acts 8:20-23/ 13:9, 10/ 14:14, 15/16:18/ 17:22/ 23:3/ 1 Kings 21:17-24/ 2 Chronicles 19:1,2/).

The above two points, comprising 20% of your doctrinal statement, would seem to explain why you might not be welcome on street corners. Tellling people who come to hear you preach that they are sinners is protected speech. Shouting out "rebukes" at passers-by is harrassment. That's the sort of thing that gives baptists a bad name.

Joshua

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Originally posted by Rev. Joshua:
Jailminister,

Do you think streetpreaching falls under constitutionally protected speech? It's always struck me as rude, intrusive, and inappropriate; and laws which forbid it are not banning the free exercise of religion; they are improving quality of life.

I'm not Jailminister, but with this point I have to disagree. Along with free exercise of religion, the 1st Ammendment also guarantees us the right to free, peacable assembly. If any such gathering were occuring on private property, the owner could request removal, but on public property the street preacher has a right.

Jailminister, in reference to your previous response to me, Luke 22:36 is in addressing self defense as the Apostles were being sent out. Notice in verse 38 that Jesus was not commanding them to heavily arm themselves for civil unrest. One sword would suffice against wild beast and robbers. It was a common practice to go about armed in those days.

Christ never went up against the government of the time. That is why the Herodians never could make a case against Him. The episode regarding the Temple tax in Matthew 22 & Mark 12 show how easily disposed of the treason argument was. Christ never tried to claim a secular governorship. His Kingdom IS not of this earth. His Dominion is in the hearts of His believers.

 

[Clint Kritzer]

Here are two excellent threads on the subject of Seperation of church & state from the history forum.

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000215

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000213

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by stubbornkelly:
Do we really need to rehash the Canada situation? There are specific things outlawed by the hate speech law, such as "inciting to violence," and things of that nature. Speaking one's opinion about "certain things" is not illegal, at least not according to the version of the bill I read.

No we don't and it has been discussed previously. Just reminding of the REAL problem that is out there. But just because it doesn't agree with your ilk, this doesn't give you the right to dismiss the illustration out of hand.

I have friends in Canada who have chatted with me over the genuine FEAR and UNEASE when simply preaching Word of God (NOT their opinion).

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Clint,

But is shouting imprecations at passers-by "peacable assembly?" If a bunch of people want to get together and talk to each other, fine. The few street preachers I've seen weren't doing that.

Joshua

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Jailminister:
In 1990 Houston Indep. School Dist. In Houston, Texas went into every school library and removed every bible, they took them out and burned them. They left the ones on witchcraft, but removed the bibles. There are lots of cases where teachers have been barred from even having a bible on their desk.

Sounds like an urban legend. I did an extensive search on the internet and could find nothing about it at all. Do you have any documentation for this?