Baptist Press: Dr. Richard Land on Torture

[Petrabilt]

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=30433


NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--There is no room for torture as part of the United States' intelligence gathering process, in Richard Land's view. The practice known as "waterboarding" is torture, he said.

Land, president of the SBC's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said there is no circumstance in which torture should be permissible in interrogations by U.S. officials, even if the authorities believe a prisoner has information that might involve national security.

I subsrive too his site and thought this was new and interesting.

 

[OldRegular]

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=30433


NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--There is no room for torture as part of the United States' intelligence gathering process, in Richard Land's view. The practice known as "waterboarding" is torture, he said.

Land, president of the SBC's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said there is no circumstance in which torture should be permissible in interrogations by U.S. officials, even if the authorities believe a prisoner has information that might involve national security.

I subsrive too his site and thought this was new and interesting.

Land is certainly entitled to his opinion. We are still able to express our opinion but only GOD knows how long. Land is also entitled to be wrong, as are others.

 

[windcatcher]

more comments from here -corrected link

Land sharply disagreed with the Obama administration's decision to release Bush administration memos from 2002-05 involving a legal review by the Bush Justice Department that approved the use of waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation techniques.

President Obama made a "horrible mistake" in releasing the memos, Land said, noting the president claimed he wanted to move forward and not look back. Land also faulted Obama for not releasing similar memos that argue that these advanced interrogation techniques produced results.

"Why the selective release of classified memos? Where is the transparency or consistency in a selective release of these documents?" Land asked.

"If [the release of the memos] were to lead to trials of some sort, it would rip the country apart domestically," Land warned.

 

[OldRegular]

more comments from here -corrected link

At least Land points out the hypocrisy of the obama administration. I sincerely believe that obama wants to see former administration officials prosecuted and the CIA emasculated.

 

[donnA]

this has been posted in 2 different forums

 

[LadyEagle]

Closed in the news forum since this was the first started.

LE

PS: Land is wrong on this one.

 

[Alcott]

Land is wrong on this one.

Maybe waterboarding opponents put him on the rack till he said it.

 

[Crabtownboy]

PS: Land is wrong on this one.

Please show me where Christ says it is permissible to torture people.

 

[targus]

Please show me where Christ says it is permissible to torture people.

Non-sequetor.

You need to demonstrate that the particular actions taken in the interrogations were "torture".

Do you even know the particulars of the situation you are condemning?

 

[Matt Black]

I do not see how one can be a Christian and possibly condone torture. The two quite simply do not go together and I applaud Dr Land for his comments.

 

[windcatcher]

Please show me where Christ says it is permissible to torture people.

You haven't presented a definition of torture.

You are assuming that we all understand what torture is an that our opinions for or against are in agreement regarding what is torture.

Even Land presents 'an opinion' that waterboarding is torture and he bases what he would approve or disapprove upon his own feelings of rightness for him to carry out the same order before delivering it to others to perform.

This is noble of a Christian living in Christian values.

Our government is not governed by Christian values: If it were, there'd be no question concerning homos@xuality and marriage or recognizing it as acceptible lifestyle: The fruit of the womb would be protected from conception until the natural end of life of the person born. Prayers conducted by Christians as an opening to any and all public forums would allow a closing 'in Jesus name" without restriction or contract to avoid: Our nation would not be going further and further into debt, but would function with conservatism as taught by the Bible: Our government would recognize us as sovereign persons and not as corporations:

Yes! You may not realized that...... But Our government recognizes not your personhood but recognizes you as a corporation: You are a commondity, a resource. This is not the intent of The Constitution of the United States as originally written, but this is the consequence of the ammendments since 1871 and the passages of laws which have followed by the Congress.

What happen to a few thugs, pales in comparison to what is happening right now to our country to remove our freedoms and rights to self determination and independance and possession and use of our own God given resources and talents. Rice, acting on behalf of the Bush government, backed our national debt to China by the national lands which are owned by the government. Recently, Clinton, when told that the default of our debt would not be sufficiently covered by taking possession of our national parks, made promise to the Chinese that US law already allows provisions that IF THE US DEFAULTS, CHINA CAN COME IN AND SEIZE PRIVATE PROPERTY VIA IMMINENT DOMAIN! BTW, Clinton minimized the human rights issue with China during her vist.

Now lets get back to dwelling on torture and swine flu instead of dealing and confronting our officials with the treasonous changes they are constructng for the demise of our nation.

 

[LadyEagle]

I do not see how one can be a Christian and possibly condone torture. The two quite simply do not go together and I applaud Dr Land for his comments.

I don't see how one can be a Christian and possibly condone torture either. What you consider torture and what others consider torture is where the disagreement lies.

Is throwing a Quran in a toilet torture?

How about putting caterpillars on someone, is that torture?

Sleep deprivation, is that torture?

To me, putting an insect on me would be torture.
To deprive me of sleep would be torture.
Making me listen to rap music would be torture.
Depriving me of a bubble bath would be torture.
Making me stand for a long period of time would be torture.
All of these threads about waterboarding are torture for me.

But none of the above, including waterboarding, is torture in reality, as explained in other threads.

We should just kill the enemy and save all of this bandwidth.

 

[rbell]

i think each one of us has our own definition of what constitutes torture. Our nation also had one as shown by its treatment of prisioners. In my view, this demonstrates the need for an international definition and a way to enforse it. The geneva conventions did that.

The adoption of the First Convention followed the foundation of the International Committee of the Red Cross in 1863. The text is given the title Resolutions of the Geneva International Conference, Geneva, 26–29 October 1863.

As of 2 August 2006, when the Republic of Montenegro adopted the four conventions, they have been ratified by 194 countries.

If every country defines torture differently there are no constraints.

However...if some countries define torture as "turning the lights on at night" (some BB members consider that torture)...should we agree to such poor logic?

Furthermore...We are a sovereign nation. I don't condone physically harmful torture...but it is not up to Montenegro to define what torture is as far as we are concerned. If I wanted to be a UN citizen, I would move to Europe.

 

[StefanM]

Furthermore...We are a sovereign nation. I don't condone physically harmful torture....

We are a "sovereign" nation, but that does not give us the right to behave as if we create our own standard of right and wrong. I would rather run the Declaration of Independence through a shredder, spit on the Constitution, and burn 10 American flags than endorse an immoral policy such as authorizing torture. Stephen Decatur was a loyal American, but my policy is far from "my country, right or wrong."

(Note to all: please refrain from going all super patriotic on me. I love America, but I love justice more.)


Psychological torture is also very serious. People may think that psychological torture isn't as serious, but psychological torture can have lifetime effects on an individual.

 

[rbell]

We are a "sovereign" nation, but that does not give us the right to behave as if we create our own standard of right and wrong. I would rather run the Declaration of Independence through a shredder, spit on the Constitution, and burn 10 American flags than endorse an immoral policy such as authorizing torture. Stephen Decatur was a loyal American, but my policy is far from "my country, right or wrong."

(Note to all: please refrain from going all super patriotic on me. I love America, but I love justice more.)


Psychological torture is also very serious. People may think that psychological torture isn't as serious, but psychological torture can have lifetime effects on an individual.

"Psychological torture" is one of those terms that can be abused. What does it mean?

I can just see it now...a couple of towelheads curled up in the fetal position, rocking, moaning, saying..."They were mean to us. They psychologically tortured us. They turned the lights on at night. They didn't give us the food we wanted. They didn't put a mint on our pillow."

 

[Timsings]

I don't see how one can be a Christian and possibly condone torture either. What you consider torture and what others consider torture is where the disagreement lies. . . .

We should just kill the enemy and save all of this bandwidth.

What if someone declares you to be the enemy?

Most of this "discussion" (and I use the term loosely) really turns on which side of the waterboard you find yourself on. It is easy to split hairs when you're talking about doing it to someone else. It's a whole different matter when you're having it done to you.

Tim Reynolds

 

[Matt Black]

I don't see how one can be a Christian and possibly condone torture either. What you consider torture and what others consider torture is where the disagreement lies.

Is throwing a Quran in a toilet torture?

How about putting caterpillars on someone, is that torture?

Sleep deprivation, is that torture?

To me, putting an insect on me would be torture.
To deprive me of sleep would be torture.
Making me listen to rap music would be torture.
Depriving me of a bubble bath would be torture.
Making me stand for a long period of time would be torture.
All of these threads about waterboarding are torture for me.

But none of the above, including waterboarding, is torture in reality, as explained in other threads.

The Geneva Conventions are a good starting point for a definition.

We should just kill the enemy and save all of this bandwidth.

As Timsings has stated, that's all fine and dandy as long as 'the enemy' is someone else, The Other. Who 'the enemy' is doesn't really matter to us as long as it's not "People Like Us"(PLU) . But the moment the government decides that 'the enemy' is PLU - which, to read some of the posts here, is what the Obama Administration may be winding up to - or, worse still, YOU, then that policy doesn't seem quite so attractive, does it?

 

[blackbird]

The Geneva Conventions are a good starting point for a definition.

In WW2------there were many German officers who carried on their possession---the Geneva Convention's "Rules of Engagement"

Upon surrendering---many of the officers would "remind" the American captors

"Geneva Convention says . . . "---------Where is our ice cream????

"Geneva Convention says . . . "-----Where are our cigarettes????

Many of the American captors didn't have to resort to torture to extract information from POW's-----rather---they would threaten the prisoner being interrogated---"If you don't tell us . . . we're gonna turn you over to the Russians!!!! Look!!! Here comes Igor now!!!!"

"Oh-kay!! Vee tell zoo zee truth!!!!!"

As a German prisoner-------being sent on an all expense paid trip to the United States---and being able to pick apples on some apple farm---or plow ground on some farm behind some mule------sure did beat sloggin' around in some fox hole haveing being shelled relentlessly by American artillery!!!!!

And many American soldiers resented that--------the German prisoners were deported to the United States----back HOME----where THEY(the American soldier) belonged----but NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! They(the American) had to stay in Europe---and keep fighting the rest of the Krauts who were duped into lickin' Hitler's boots!!!!!

 

[LadyEagle]

The Geneva Conventions are a good starting point for a definition.


As Timsings has stated, that's all fine and dandy as long as 'the enemy' is someone else, The Other. Who 'the enemy' is doesn't really matter to us as long as it's not "People Like Us"(PLU) . But the moment the government decides that 'the enemy' is PLU - which, to read some of the posts here, is what the Obama Administration may be winding up to - or, worse still, YOU, then that policy doesn't seem quite so attractive, does it?

This government has already decided that right wing conservatives are the enemy. I expect before it's all over, there will be true persecution and not waterboarding, but far worse. Christians are being persecuted all over the world, considered the enemy of the state. Is your passion for them, as well?

 

[Martin]

The "waterboarding" / torture debate is a smoke screen put up by the Republican and Democratic parties to distract the American people from the fact that our constitutional rights are being violated on a daily basis by both parties. The Patriot Act is a violation of the United States Constitution! Give it time and it will be used against Christians to silence us. This is why we should never give government, Republican or Democratic, new powers. Every power the naive Republicans gave to Bush they also gave to Obama and every future president. Land and others need to wake up and be more concerned about this than what happened to a bunch of murderous thugs at Gitmo.