Baptist Purgatory

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
Perhaps someone can explain to me exactly what Mr Denson means when he says he is a 'Pauline dispensationalist'. It sounds to me that he is saying that if Paul didn't say it, then it doesn't apply to 'the Church'. What does Paul mean here in 1Corinthians?
1 Corinthians 10:1-11
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

I take this to mean that Paul is admonishing us to heed the ensamples (examples) of the Old Testament. He warns us not to lust after evil things, not to be idolaters, not to commit fornication, not to tempt Christ, and not to murmur. But why? Sure in the ensamples, we see that the Jews were destroyed for these things, but were not Jews, were the Church! The temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord are we!

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Destroy? In the same sense that the Jews were destroyed? Surely not, were Christians after all.

Forgive my sarcasm, brother Denson. This passage is obviously warning the brethren (who I take to be believers, but your veiw may differ from mine) of a type of destruction. Whether you want to believe that it is in this life only, or at the judgment seat of Christ, we can certainly agree he is not saying that Christians will lose their eternal salvation, can we not?

You accuse Faust of ignoring context in chapter 9, where paul speaks of being a castaway. I must insist that you apply the same care of context in your interpretation of the passage. Context does not end with a chapter number.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27
24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

What does the word moreover mean in 10:1?

MOREO'VER, adv. [more and over.] Beyond what has been said; further; besides; also; likewise.

So, the apostle Paul has informed me that whatever he is writing about next expands upon whatever he was just writing about, which happens to be our castaway passage in chapter 9. The admonition of Paul to heed the ensample of the Jews being destroyed for murmuring is a continuation of the illustration of running the race to obtain the crown. The crown is the prize, the reward that Paul wants to partake of with them in verse 23 of chapter 9. Perhaps part of rightly dividing the word of truth is figuring out where the missing paragraph markers go?

Bro. James,

A Pauline dispensationalist is one who BELIEVES dispensationalism as presented by Paul within his epistles. He characterizes and defines the term, view, and subject. You certainly don’t believe everything in the Bible is written TO the body of Christ. Please don’t pretend that you do.

I surely believe that Paul is writing to the Corinthians warning them about the behaviour of Jews in the wilderness. They were destroyed in the wilderness for specific sins, which are mentioned to the Corinthians. The Jews DESTROYED were KILLED under the OT though, while Christians are under the NT.

In comes your “slur” now about MY UNDERSTANDING of paragraph markers, which you repeat again in closing. I like to point those remarks out, so that WHEN I RESPOND to you, you UNDERSTAND why I respond the way I do. I’ll be “nice” this time though.

Faust DOES ignore the context. The CONTEXT IS PREVIOUS TO Paul’s STATEMENT of 9:24-27. He’s speaking of his ACTIONS while in PRESENTATION of the gospel to others at Corinth, which he could have changed DUE TO HIS APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY.

You have “wilily” ignored the castaway issue as presented in my refutation. See it in detail at my site. (Chapter one, I believe.) The CASTAWAY concerned him (singular) IN PRESENTATION OF THE GOSPEL TTHERS, “not” the Corinthians (plural) in their WARNINGS of sinful acts, for which they could be DESTROYED.

The castaway references HIS PREACHING, not sins committed by HIM, which are referenced in chapter ten. It refers to HIM “in the eyes of Corinthians” THEN, not a future judgment whereby HE could be cast into the underworld. (Good grief!)

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

There’s NO DOUBT about it. He’s talking about himself.

That’s one of the major passages which Faust uses to LAY HIS FOUNDATION for the “incorrect” teaching to which he subscribes.

Your argument that moreover references what he said in chapter nine is obligatory to the Corinthians in chapter 10 is faulty. READ YOUR OWN DEFINITION.

Sorry, Paul’s usage of the word in the books of Corinthians doesn’t REQUIRE that it was similar to that which he was previously writing about. It was BEYOND what was said.

1 Corinthians 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Stewardship

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

The Gospel

2 Corinthians 1:23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.

Reason for non-visitation of Corinthians

2 Corinthians 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;

Giving

Now brother as I told your buddy, I’m not through with my pamphlet, but you are most welcome to research it. This was just a “taste” of Faust’s follies.

Good day.

Carl W. Denson

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by carlaimpinge:

I surely believe that Paul is writing to the Corinthians warning them about the behaviour of Jews in the wilderness. They were destroyed in the wilderness for specific sins, which are mentioned to the Corinthians. The Jews DESTROYED were KILLED under the OT though, while Christians are under the NT.

In comes your “slur” now about MY UNDERSTANDING of paragraph markers, which you repeat again in closing. I like to point those remarks out, so that WHEN I RESPOND to you, you UNDERSTAND why I respond the way I do. I’ll be “nice” this time though.

Faust DOES ignore the context. The CONTEXT IS PREVIOUS TO Paul’s STATEMENT of 9:24-27. He’s speaking of his ACTIONS while in PRESENTATION of the gospel to others at Corinth, which he could have changed DUE TO HIS APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY.

You have “wilily” ignored the castaway issue as presented in my refutation. See it in detail at my site. (Chapter one, I believe.) The CASTAWAY concerned him (singular) IN PRESENTATION OF THE GOSPEL TTHERS, “not” the Corinthians (plural) in their WARNINGS of sinful acts, for which they could be DESTROYED.

The castaway references HIS PREACHING, not sins committed by HIM, which are referenced in chapter ten. It refers to HIM “in the eyes of Corinthians” THEN, not a future judgment whereby HE could be cast into the underworld. (Good grief!)

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

There’s NO DOUBT about it. He’s talking about himself.

That’s one of the major passages which Faust uses to LAY HIS FOUNDATION for the “incorrect” teaching to which he subscribes.

Your argument that moreover references what he said in chapter nine is obligatory to the Corinthians in chapter 10 is faulty. READ YOUR OWN DEFINITION.

Sorry, Paul’s usage of the word in the books of Corinthians doesn’t REQUIRE that it was similar to that which he was previously writing about. It was BEYOND what was said.

I appreciate your charity, brother, being nice to me in your response. I am certainly not wanting to argue for the sake of argument, nor smite a fellowservant. If I didn't believe that this was an important issue, I wouldn't touch it, as there is a lot of emotion involved in these discussions. Let us all keep charity in mind while discussing these things, as I count you a dear brother Carl and have been in agreement with quite a number of your posts on this board, although I am sure we have disagreed at times.
1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Whether Paul was expanding on, or going beyond, there is a connection being made between the two thoughts. It is not a random leap in context to an entirely different subject. This would not be the correct usage of the word. Here are a couple of examples from the American Heritage Dictionary at reference.com:

moreover
adv : in addition; "computer chess games are getting cheaper all the time; furthermore, their quality is improving"; "the cellar was dark; moreover, mice nested there";

Your suggesting that paul's usage as 'beyond' what he was stating before is to read like this:
'The moon was full. Moreover, I don't like broccoli.' This would be considered lunatic ramblings. Directly or indirectly, the moreover joins the passages.

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Your document makes the assertion that, because Paul uses the word when, he is associating temporaly being castaway with his preaching. This is not a sound reading of the verse. Your interpretation of the verse might be correct if it said something like 'lest that by any means, when I am preaching to others, I myself should be a castaway.' Have preached is past tense, Paul has already done the preaching. Paul is saying he brings his body under subjection to avoid being a castaway, after having preached such to others.

 

[av1611jim]

Brother Carl;
I was once where you are now. EXACTLY where you are now. Pauline Dispensationalism is a system designed primarily to rob the Christian of a full 1/3 of his New Testament, by assigning that 1/3 of the NT to Hebrews and Gentiles in the "transitional" periods of history. A "Pauline Dispensationalist" will squirm out from under the clear warnings to believers by doing EXACTLY what you have done in your articles.
In reading much of you "refutation" of Brother Joey, I experienced a strange sense of "deja'vu'". It was as if I was reading Doc Ruckman's work.

His, and your, only answer for this truth is "heresy!" or "That is not FOR the church". Your solution, it appears, is simpy dismissal. Not sound exegesis.

You are entitled to "whip out your pen knife" if you choose to. On the other hand, I will take the WORDS of that BOOK as given by the Holy Spirit as they apply to believers quite literally.

You cannot find what you are looking for, and that is an excuse to ignore warnings to believers to live an holy, sanctified, seperated life.

I wonder often times why it is that christians such as yourself will gladly embrace the promises of good things from the hand of our LORD, yet pass the warnings of chastisement for unfaithfulness, disobedience, slothfulness etc, off to unbelievers.

I have asked in another thread, but it seems this thread is more appropriate to ask it;

How is it that the death of an unfaithful Christian sanctifies him? For this is EXACTLY what you are espousing by your denial of this truth.

Good day sir.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by carlaimpinge:
Did you comprehend my post? If you would like to discuss my rebuttal, which is unfinished, you are welcome to visit my site, where you can freely post your comments and questions.

If it's the same for you I'll just hang.

If you are asking me to choose between debating Dr. Eddie Haskell of Mr Hyde, well that's a no brainer. If you like, you can go back and write that I am afraid. Quite frankly, I am.

I'm sure that is also a typical response too.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

. . .Haskell or Mr Hyde . . .

sorry

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Lacy Evans:
. . .Haskell or Mr Hyde . . .

sorry

WHO are those guys?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Lacy Evans]

Eddie Haskell - That boy in "Leave It To Beaver" who was really nice and polite around Mr. & Mrs. Cleaver, but then really nasty when around his own friends.

Mr Hyde - As in Dr. Jekyll and . . .

lacy

 

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by James_Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by carlaimpinge:

I surely believe that Paul is writing to the Corinthians warning them about the behaviour of Jews in the wilderness. They were destroyed in the wilderness for specific sins, which are mentioned to the Corinthians. The Jews DESTROYED were KILLED under the OT though, while Christians are under the NT.

In comes your “slur” now about MY UNDERSTANDING of paragraph markers, which you repeat again in closing. I like to point those remarks out, so that WHEN I RESPOND to you, you UNDERSTAND why I respond the way I do. I’ll be “nice” this time though.

Faust DOES ignore the context. The CONTEXT IS PREVIOUS TO Paul’s STATEMENT of 9:24-27. He’s speaking of his ACTIONS while in PRESENTATION of the gospel to others at Corinth, which he could have changed DUE TO HIS APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY.

You have “wilily” ignored the castaway issue as presented in my refutation. See it in detail at my site. (Chapter one, I believe.) The CASTAWAY concerned him (singular) IN PRESENTATION OF THE GOSPEL TTHERS, “not” the Corinthians (plural) in their WARNINGS of sinful acts, for which they could be DESTROYED.

The castaway references HIS PREACHING, not sins committed by HIM, which are referenced in chapter ten. It refers to HIM “in the eyes of Corinthians” THEN, not a future judgment whereby HE could be cast into the underworld. (Good grief!)

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

There’s NO DOUBT about it. He’s talking about himself.

That’s one of the major passages which Faust uses to LAY HIS FOUNDATION for the “incorrect” teaching to which he subscribes.

Your argument that moreover references what he said in chapter nine is obligatory to the Corinthians in chapter 10 is faulty. READ YOUR OWN DEFINITION.

Sorry, Paul’s usage of the word in the books of Corinthians doesn’t REQUIRE that it was similar to that which he was previously writing about. It was BEYOND what was said.

I appreciate your charity, brother, being nice to me in your response. I am certainly not wanting to argue for the sake of argument, nor smite a fellowservant. If I didn't believe that this was an important issue, I wouldn't touch it, as there is a lot of emotion involved in these discussions. Let us all keep charity in mind while discussing these things, as I count you a dear brother Carl and have been in agreement with quite a number of your posts on this board, although I am sure we have disagreed at times.
1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Whether Paul was expanding on, or going beyond, there is a connection being made between the two thoughts. It is not a random leap in context to an entirely different subject. This would not be the correct usage of the word. Here are a couple of examples from the American Heritage Dictionary at reference.com:

moreover
adv : in addition; "computer chess games are getting cheaper all the time; furthermore, their quality is improving"; "the cellar was dark; moreover, mice nested there";

Your suggesting that paul's usage as 'beyond' what he was stating before is to read like this:
'The moon was full. Moreover, I don't like broccoli.' This would be considered lunatic ramblings. Directly or indirectly, the moreover joins the passages.

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Your document makes the assertion that, because Paul uses the word when, he is associating temporaly being castaway with his preaching. This is not a sound reading of the verse. Your interpretation of the verse might be correct if it said something like 'lest that by any means, when I am preaching to others, I myself should be a castaway.' Have preached is past tense, Paul has already done the preaching. Paul is saying he brings his body under subjection to avoid being a castaway, after having preached such to others. </font>[/QUOTE]No problem brother.

You AGAIN sidestepped my statements which refer to BEING A CASTAWAY, hinging on an alleged interpretation of reading PREACHING presently. You again assert that moreover applies in chapter ten to what Paul is speaking about in chapter nine, when I have given verses of prooftext, that he didn't use the word like that in the book.

Your illustrations will not do. The word as Paul used it will suffice for the interpretation.

In 1 Cor.9:27, Paul is speaking about ANYTIME he "had preached" to ANYONE. He's TESTIFYING about himself and what he HAS given up willingly for the ministry's sake. I KNOW that he's speaking in the PAST TENSE, for it's USED as a NOUN. He's speaking of the MINISTRY in the context. Now look at what I said about it.

QUOTE:

Faust DOES ignore the context. The CONTEXT IS PREVIOUS TO Paul’s STATEMENT of 9:24-27. He’s speaking of his ACTIONS while in PRESENTATION of the gospel to others at Corinth, which he could have changed DUE TO HIS APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY.

You have “wilily” ignored the castaway issue as presented in my refutation. See it in detail at my site. (Chapter one, I believe.) The CASTAWAY concerned him (singular) IN PRESENTATION OF THE GOSPEL TTHERS, “not” the Corinthians (plural) in their WARNINGS of sinful acts, for which they could be DESTROYED.

The castaway references HIS PREACHING, not sins committed by HIM, which are referenced in chapter ten. It refers to HIM “in the eyes of Corinthians” THEN, not a future judgment whereby HE could be cast into the underworld. (Good grief!)

UNQUOTE.

The SUBJECTION does not concern HIS SINS, but HIS PREACHING unto others. He will GET A GREATER REWARD because he "gave up", what he COULD HAVE DONE BY APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY, but willingly left it off!

Brother, the whole CONTEXT of chapter nine concerns his apostleship and ministry. When he starts chapter ten he CHANGES subject, as he did when he used moreover in these epistles.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

[James_Newman]

OK, lets put the castaway issue aside for a moment, and address the next chapter. You say you believe the warnings apply to us as believers, what are the warnings warning us about? Of course a Christian should not commit idolatry, or fornication, but to what end? Our examples of the Israelites were destroyed for these things. Do we not have to fear similar destruction?

 

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
Brother Carl;
I was once where you are now. EXACTLY where you are now. Pauline Dispensationalism is a system designed primarily to rob the Christian of a full 1/3 of his New Testament, by assigning that 1/3 of the NT to Hebrews and Gentiles in the "transitional" periods of history. A "Pauline Dispensationalist" will squirm out from under the clear warnings to believers by doing EXACTLY what you have done in your articles.
In reading much of you "refutation" of Brother Joey, I experienced a strange sense of "deja'vu'". It was as if I was reading Doc Ruckman's work.

His, and your, only answer for this truth is "heresy!" or "That is not FOR the church". Your solution, it appears, is simpy dismissal. Not sound exegesis.

You are entitled to "whip out your pen knife" if you choose to. On the other hand, I will take the WORDS of that BOOK as given by the Holy Spirit as they apply to believers quite literally.

You cannot find what you are looking for, and that is an excuse to ignore warnings to believers to live an holy, sanctified, seperated life.

I wonder often times why it is that christians such as yourself will gladly embrace the promises of good things from the hand of our LORD, yet pass the warnings of chastisement for unfaithfulness, disobedience, slothfulness etc, off to unbelievers.

I have asked in another thread, but it seems this thread is more appropriate to ask it;

How is it that the death of an unfaithful Christian sanctifies him? For this is EXACTLY what you are espousing by your denial of this truth.

Good day sir.

In HIS service;
Jim

Jim,

I saw your other comments on the other thread. (There are two threads where I can be railed now. How neat!)

You are talking out of your muddled mind with your bad mouth. Pauline dispensationalism is biblical dispensationalism. It is not a “system”, but scriptural truth stated by Paul. (1 Cor.9, Eph.1, 3, Col.1)

Sorry bud, I don’t squirm. Ya’ll squeal though when someone defies your teaching who CAN read the Holy Scriptures in context.

Thanks for the complement concerning the Doc. You certainly didn’t STUDY those chapters. I know you didn’t, AFTER stating this piece of rubbish.

Quote:

His, and your, only answer for this truth is "heresy!" or "That is not FOR the church". Your solution, it appears, is simpy dismissal. Not sound exegesis.

Unquote.

I didn’t write a refutation to simply DISMISS what he said without addressing his REASON OF TEACHING. Why that’s nothing but silly nonsense. It is “all” referenced by SOUND EXEGESIS, brother.

Don’t play the “pious poptart” role about accepting ALL the scriptures that the Holy Spirit has given to us. You don’t, and BOTH of us know it.

So I’m looking for an excuse to IGNORE WARNINGS for Christians to live a holy, sanctified, separated life? There is just another one of those IRRATIONAL, IRREVERENT, and IRATE statements which are proclaimed to “bloody” your BROTHER. Son, you been messing with muledeer in Montana too long. I PREACH Titus 2:11-15.

Quote:

I wonder often times why it is that christians such as yourself will gladly embrace the promises of good things from the hand of our LORD, yet pass the warnings of chastisement for unfaithfulness, disobedience, slothfulness etc, off to unbelievers.

Unquote.

What OUTRIGHT slander of my position, which you don’t even know. I don't subscribe to Calvinism, Arminianism, or Faust's teaching of Accountability, which is a FALSE MIXTURE of scriptures. I teach Pauline dispensationalism which is the CORRECT teaching, which SEPARATES Calvinism and Arminianism, due to the MYSTERY and PROPHECY.

Paul’s JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST is not found in the gospels after a posttribulation coming of the Lord. Yet YOU USE those verses in TEACHING of a PRETRIBULATION coming of the Lord AND JUDGMENT for the members of the body of Christ.

That’s WRONG DIVISION.

A Christian’s death sanctifies? It appears that your theology doesn’t work out with your mind.

A member of the body of Christ is SANCTIFED by faith through GRACE (get that, not works), the Holy Spirit, and the word of God.

You and your bud Lacy have testified as to your sincerity in discussion. There is NO DISCUSSION with you boys. You want to TEACH, and you can't.

As I told the others, you are welcome to “refute” the rest of the material written, WHEN YOU CAN COMPREHEND it.

Good day.

Carl W. Denson

 

[av1611jim]

Carl;
My comparison of you with Doc was no compliment.

Sir; you are wrong! Pauline Dispensationalism is wrong dividing. It is nothing more than "pen knife" eisegesis.

I am done with you.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I want to tell you something on Joey Faust. I respect him well. No doubt, Faust loves the Lord so much. He fears the Lord. He is warning to Christians about being excluded from enter millennial kingdom. He urges Christians to be faithful and serve the Lord. That's wonderful. I agree with Faust's preaching on sanctification life, by obeying God. We all ought to obey God, and separate from the world, serve the Lord. Walk godly daily. Of course, I agree with Faust's teaching that we all shall be fear and trambling face the judgement seat of Christ. No doubt, Faust is a truly wonderful Christian, I am sure he is saved because of his fruit.

I do agree with Faust's teaching with warnings like as Matt. 25:30, etc all of these are speak apply to Christians.

The fact is most baptists of today's dislike Christ's word with warning such as Matt. 25:26-30, etc.

The reason is, most baptist churches are heavily teaching on security salvation. I was the one of them before for a long time. Most baptists do not believe a Christian shall cast away into hell, because they believe Christ already pay all our sins through His blood at Calvary.

Also, some baptist pastors saying of 'a lazy servant' of Matt. 25:26-30 is different perosn, not apply to us such as "Pauline Gospel"(Carl's teaching).

Well, obivious reason is, many baptist pastors KNOW Matt. 25:14-30 is very clear speak to us as individuals, this passage is warning to us what will be happen in the judgment seat of Christ. Many baptist pastors KNOW Matt. 25:30 is a serious warning to a lazy servant shall be cast away into outer darkness. Sadly, most baptist pastors in America avoid Matt. 25:30 to preaching it to the congregation. The reason is conflict with security salvation doctrine, and might offend members, and leave church, lost members. That why many pastors avoid many warning passages to the congregation.

Sadly, all pastors shall face more serious judgment than reugular Christians at the judgment seat of Christ - James 3:1 "My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." Pastors shall face more serious judgment than Christians who are not pastor, teacher, leader, etc. Because pastors misleading people by error teaching, decieved people. Even, pastors leading many people go into hell because of believe pastor's teaching.

I am serious concerning on pastors who is now teaching to people by misinterpreting passages of the Bible. Mostly of the congrgation believing pastor's teaching. The reason is, most of them do not read or study Bible at home. They only bring their Bible to the churches, and listening to pastor's preaching or teaching. They think pastor's always right. But, most people do not realize that many pastors' teaching or preaching have lot of errors and false doctrines. That why many people are misleading or deceived by pastors. Many people are on the way to hell because of believing pastors' preaching according to Matthew 7:15, and 15:14.

Teaching of security salvation & millennial exclusion both that disturbing me the mostly. I consider both are dangerous. Sorry to saying it. I do not mean to blunt to you on these. But, I am serious concerning about Christians who are currently believing pastors' preaching, they are sinning life, because they salvation does not effect or cause them go to hell, while sinning, because of Calvary. That is called, unconditional salvation.

I used to believe in unconditional salvation for a long time. Till 1 1/2 year ago, I realized unconditional salvation is dangerous to Christians and baptists. Because, they think Calvary already pay all our sins at once of past, present, and future sins through Christ's blood. I agree that Bible tells us, Christ died for our sins on the cross through his blood. But, Christ only forgived our sisn of past sins, present sins(unless we continue confessing our sins). But, he does not forgive our sins of future. Hebrews 10:26-27 warn us, "For if we sin wilfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." It warns us, If we continue sinning AFTER we hear the gospel, and received the gospel, then afterward no more sacrifice of sins. Same with Hebrews 6:4-6.

Now, some independent fundamental baptist pastors are start to preaching or teaching to the congregation on millennial exlcusion, that disturb me the mostly, and I am so concerning of this. I know this teaching is heresy and dangerous. Sorry to saying it. Because this teaching is unbiblical.

One thing, I do agree with Faust, that he warns them, a unfaithful servant or baptist might cast into the outer darkness according Matt. 25:30. But I strongly disagree with Faust that he saying it is a temporary punishment. Obivously, his teaching is partially of purgatory. He won't admit it. There is no evidence find anywhere in the Bible teaching us that a lazy servant suffering in the outer darkness or hell just for a temporary. Clear, Bible teaching us that outer darkness is eternality punishment. Outer darkness is synonmous as hell. Even, hell is synonmous with the lake of fire.

We all know that hell is a temporary place like as "jail". But, when the great white throne comes, then hell shall be CAST INTO the lake of fire according Rev. 20:11-15. Hell is a "Reserved place" for all sinners, lazy servants, disobey servants, await for the great white throne, THEN, they shall all shall be cast away into the the lake of fire. The lake of fire is a future final eternality state.

I strong disagree with Faust saying that a Christian shall hurt 'second death' of Rev. 2:11. He thinks 'second death' is a temporary. No way, that he can prove it is a temporary. He should be aware that 'second death' is speak of everlasting punihsment in the lake of fire according to Rev. 20:14-15.

I am praying for Faust, that he have to follow the Bible only, instead of listening or read too many commentatories such as Watchman Nee, S.S. Craig, etc...

I hope that you have to accept the clear teaching from the Bible that the outer darkness is a everlasting punishment, not "temporary place", because it is hell.

You do need a clear proof verse in the Bible saying, 'outer darkness' is a temporary, also, you need to find a proof verse in the Bible saying that 'second death' is a temporary.

Yet, I do not find a verse anywhere in the Bible teaching us that a lazy servant shall be suffer in the hell or outer darkness for a temporary time. Clear, Bible warns us, a lazy servant shall spend everlasting punishment in the outer darkness, and shall suffering everlasting of 'second death' in the lake of fire.

I pray that all of you have to back to the Bible and sticky with the Bible instead what you listening to any commentatories, teachers, pastors, etc.. on temporary suffering of beyond death.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[carlaimpinge]

It's simply amazing isn't it?

Brethren, all FOUR VIEWS, are displayed within this thread and are spoken of within my rebuttal of Faust's book.

Calvinist/Arminian/Calvinistic-Accountability/Pauline Dispensational

 

[Lacy Evans]

DPT said:
I am serious concerning on pastors who is now teaching to people by misinterpreting passages of the Bible. Mostly of the congrgation believing pastor's teaching. The reason is, most of them do not read or study Bible at home. They only bring their Bible to the churches, and listening to pastor's preaching or teaching. They think pastor's always right. But, most people do not realize that many pastors' teaching or preaching have lot of errors and false doctrines. That why many people are misleading or deceived by pastors. Many people are on the way to hell because of believing pastors' preaching according to Matthew 7:15, and 15:14.

Amen Brother DPT! Preach it!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I have seen so many baptist pastors are avoiding many passages in the Bible talking lot about conditional warnings. Many baptist pastors skipping many important passages, not want to teach or preach on these passages to the congregation. Many pastors fear, if they teach or preach on these, they might lose their members. The main reason is money. Many pastors easy making money by teaching false doctrines to make congregation feel comfortable amd having itching ears.

I realize Revelation 22:19 is more than just discuss on Bible translation or manuscripts issue, also, many leaders skip or avoid many passages from the Bible, refuse to teach or preach on these passages, like as they seem tear many passages out of the Bible, think these passages are not apply to us as Church. Well, many leaders are doing it today, i fear that God might take pastors' name out of the book of life, for skip or avoid many passages.

Apostle Paul says, "PREACH THE WORD; be instant inseason, out season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine." - 2 Timothy 4:2. Paul commands us, that we ought to preach God's Word, not just for only "Pauline Gospel", also whole 65 books of the Bible to people. Because 2 Tim. 4:3-4 telling us, in the last days, many people do not like to hear truths, sound doctrines, warnings from the Bible. They rather listening positive teachings or preachings. For example they LOVE to hear Benny Hinn like as "entertainment service". Benny Hinn is a obivously false prophet, he deceived thousands or probably over a million of people. He is so greedy and ego, make lot of money by deceived them.

I notice the fact of churches in America today, they LOVE to hear preaching or teaching on security salvation, and pretribulation. Sorry to saying it. Because of, so many churches HATE to listen or hear many conditional warnings from the Bible. That why they want to listen soft and positive teachings or preachings. I notice so many churches are big and fancy buildings, because of preach or teach soft and positive to the congregation. Easy for pastors to draw more people to join and believing them by preach soft and positive. That why many pastors are rich, and many churches are rich.

America is the wealthiest nation in the world. Nothing wrong being to be rich. But, have the wrong purpose for become wealthy. Because of pride and famous, and making comfortbale living by draw people to believing the lies.

I seem telling with blunt and off the point or track on this topic. But, I am trying to tell you, we need back to God's word with fear. America really revival so badly now. I already see so many baptist churches in America are already forsaking God, and give heed listening to error doctrines.

Three hundred years ago, baptist churches in America was strong spiritual, have revivals, preached sound doctrines. Today, many baptist churches are dead, not same as before.

We as baptists need return to God's Word again, and ask God to revive us again.


Please be honest with me. Can you find a verse anywhere in the Bible saying, 'outer darkness' is a temporary place? Can you find a verse anywhere in the Bible saying, 'second death' is a temporary? Can you find a verse saying, fire is a temporary? Can you find a verse saying, a lazy servant shall be finally released or freed out of the outer darkness or fire?

Early Christians never teaching 'outer darkness, 'second death', 'fire', 'hell', lake of fire' are temporary. None of Early Christians teaching purgatory. Till during 4th Century, Roman Catholic developed new teaching of purgatory. All protestants strong opposite it. Till 19th Century, protestants started to believe in purgatory, as so called, "millennial exclusion". But, it was very small percent like as pretribulation camp. Even, premillennial camp was small too.

Now, pretribulation camp is so huge and popular. Premillennial camp is so large and popular. I notice baptist purgatory camp is just start to growing slowly.

I beg you, who believe or teaching baptist purgatory, back to God's Word as old path again and stay on the same old path again. Do not listen any countless of commentatories, teachers, pastors, etc. on their philosophy of their teaching. Please sticky on God's Word only.

'Preach the word' of 2 Tim. 4:2, not just for only "Pauline Gospel"(13 epistles), also include ALL books of the Bible - 2 Tim. 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Baptist Bible Believer]

The propenents of Millennial Exclusion quote verses which tell us to fear and to take great heed lest we should be cast into hell for the one thousand period of the Millennium - while other, obedient, Christians are happily ruling and reigning with CHRIST - the disobedient will be in outer darkness and suffer gnashing of teeth.

How do we refute this heresy simply and succinctly?

The Rapture.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words" (I Thessalonians 4:16-18).

First, those that are raptured which will include every saved member of the body of CHRIST from the beginning of the church to the conclusion of the church - and - we are promised to

EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

This promise can not be fulfilled if a certain amount are being punished in hell, or outer darkness.

They will ever be WITH the LORD!

Secondly, We are to comfort one another with this truth - not warn them of horrible judgment and chiliastic suffering.

I call those that are wrapped up in the heresy of J.D. Faust and Charles Stanley to repent of this error and return to the truth of the Word, and only the "Thus saith the LORD," and not the vain ramblings of men.

The rapture is our final guarantee that we are no longer capable of being separated from our LORD.

Of course, our main promise to this effect is found in Romans 8!

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38, 39).

Those that have this promise need not fear that their judgment could result in being cast out of the presence of the LORD even for a time.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Excellent post! Thank you.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

1 Thess. 4:13-18 have do nothing with the timing of rapture. This context is talking about the promise of our love ones, what will be happen to them at Lord's coming. We shall see our love ones again, no more separate or farewell again, we shall always be with them, also to be with the Lord forever and ever. Amen. I am looking forward for Christ's coming.

Please show me a verse saying that a disobedient servant shall be suffering in the hell for a thousand years - 'temporary'?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Romans 8:38,39 do not discuss about salvation, this is talking about the power of God, and none of anything can separate us from the love of God. Even, persecutions, and tribulations cannot stop us from love the Lord.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Baptist Bible Believer]

Deaf, your application would work only if you can cut this clause out of the passage, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds" - if it is merely speaking of our loved ones, how come we are included.

It is sad that you are more interested in wresting the Scripture, and not resting in the Scripture.

Tell me, are you sinlessly perfect?