Baptist vs. Presbyterian

[Lacy Evans]

My Daddy says that his Cumberlin Presbyterian preacher father (My Grampa) always noticed that after their congregation sang "Will There Be Any Stars in My Crown", the Baptist church (1/2 mile up the road) would loudly sing, "No Not One, No Not One".

Sounds about right.

Lacy

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

This is informative. Perhaps a new thread could be started on the differences between the Baptists and Methodists.

Aloha.

 

[padredurand]

Perhaps a new thread could be started on the differences between the Baptists and Methodists.

Or you could start the shortest thread in BB history. The similarities between Baptists and Methodist: many of them have Sunday services at 11:00 am.

 

[rlvaughn]

FOS, good helpful post relevant to the question. I'd like to add a few comments.

Originally posted by FriendofSpurgeon:
4. Eschatology:
Baptist - normally, pre-trib, pre-mil
Presbyterian - May be amillenial or historical premillenial; also, may be partial preterist as well. Not a major issue in most Presbyterian churches.

I think the idea that most Baptists are pre-trib pre-millenniallists is a misconception based on a vocal minority actively and consistently promoting their views more than the others (and more likely to make it a "fellowship" issue). Baptists are all across the spectrum on this issue, though not too many are postmillennialists or preterists.

6. Lord's Table:
Baptist - an ordinance - memorial service only; normally does not happen very often and is a closed table (usually open to only those church members or other Baptists)

The closed table is fast losing its predominant position among Baptists.

7. View of Salvation:
Baptist - ranges from strongly Arminian to Calvinistic; from what I've experienced personally - closer to the Arminian position
Presbyterian - Calvinistic

The majority of Baptists could probably be called "two-point" Calvinists, holding total depravity and final preservance (or eternal security), while rejecting the other three points. I've heard the Cumberland Presbyterian position might be similar. Does anyone know?

10. Scholarship/Education (note: I hesitate to include this, but from what I have seen, this is true):
Baptist - varies from pastor to pastor and church to church. Some ordained pastors have considerable education, while others do not.
Presbyterian - Pastors must always have both a four-year degree plus a seminary degree before ordination.

I agree, though the best choice of words might be "formal education", since all scholarship and education does not come in a formal setting. The point is very valid. While a particular Baptist church might choose to set some kind of educational requirements, there are no "Baptist educational requirements" required for ordination, only that the candidate meets the recommendation of the ordaining presbytery and approval of the local church.

 

[Smoky]

The majority of Baptists could probably be called "two-point" Calvinists, holding total depravity and final preservance (or eternal security), while rejecting the other three points. I've heard the Cumberland Presbyterian position might be similar. Does anyone know?

This is true, Cumberland Presbyterians believe in universal atonement and that "whosoever will may come". They rejected the Calvinism of the Westminster Profession during the second great awakening of the early 1800s and drew up their own. http://members.aol.com/mleslie598/confession.html#Scripture

 

[rlvaughn]

Thanks for the information, Smoky.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

1. Church Government:
Baptist - Congregational, autonomous, no formal link to other churches
Presbyterian - Representative, ruled by elders, formal links to other churches within the denomination

2. Church Services:
Baptist - usually less formal. Most services normally end with an invitation to come forward. Think Charles Stanley.
Presbyterian - usually more formal, with creeds, confessions, responsive readings, etc. Think D. James Kennedy. However, many evangelical Presbyterian churches tend to be less formal and you might find little difference between the two church services (except for the lack of an invitation).

3. Theology:
Baptist - normally Dispensational; may be new Covenant Theology
Presbyterian - Covenant Theology

4. Eschatology:
Baptist - normally, pre-trib, pre-mil
Presbyterian - May be amillenial or historical premillenial; also, may be partial preterist as well. Not a major issue in most Presbyterian churches.

5. Baptism:
Baptist - An ordinance. Believers only by immersion only
Presbyterian - A sacrament. Believers and their children; by pouring, sprinkling or immersion

6. Lord's Table:
Baptist - an ordinance - memorial service only; normally does not happen very often and is a closed table (usually open to only those church members or other Baptists)
Presbyterian - a sacrament - a means of God's grace; normally occurs more often, though not every week and is open to all Christians present

7. View of Salvation:
Baptist - ranges from strongly Arminian to Calvinistic; from what I've experienced personally - closer to the Arminian position
Presbyterian - Calvinistic

8. Confessions:
Baptist - not a confessional church, but may refer to the London Confession (but probably not)
Presbyterian - holds to doctrines defined in the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Larger & Shorter Catechisms

9. Social/Political Issues:
Baptist - normally more conservative
Presbyterian - normally less conservative; normally these issues are not addressed from the pulpit

10. Scholarship/Education (note: I hesitate to include this, but from what I have seen, this is true):
Baptist - varies from pastor to pastor and church to church. Some ordained pastors have considerable education, while others do not.
Presbyterian - Pastors must always have both a four-year degree plus a seminary degree before ordination.

11. Calling to Ministers:
Baptist - by the local church only
Presbyterian - by the local church, plus qualifications and doctrines are approved by the elders in other local Presbyterian churches (ie the Presbytery)

Just to throw a little wrench in the works, I'll add the Primitive or Old Baptist distinctions to the list.

Church Government:

Same as other Baptists in theory, but more often than not in our churches the church votes on every issue and no decisions are made without approval and vote of the whole church body.

Church Services:

Informal. Church building in particular. Though we do have a certain flow to the service. Singing, prayer, preaching, shaking hands while singing, prayer, lunch!

Theology:

New Covenant

Eschatology:

I've never been all that familiar with the different " -mills" so I'll tell you in my own words that most of us believe that we are currently in the "millenial" reign of Jesus and that it is not a literal 1,000 year reign. The 2nd coming will be the end of this earthly reign. I've never gotten consistent answers to the differing "mill" definitons, so put me in whichever group you think best fits.

Baptism:

An ordinance. Full immersion by an ordained minister of our faith is the only accepatble baptism. My pastor was actually dunked twice because his hair didn't go all the way under. He wouldn't have that problem now. He's as slick as a cue ball.

Lord's Table:

Ordinance to consist of unleavened bread, fermented wine, and followed by footwashing, although most churches see footwashing as more of a "directed suggestion" than an ordinance. Lord's Supper must also be administered by an ordained minister of our faith. We are close communion with other churches of our faith.

View of Salvation:

Most would call us hyper-calvinist. I prefer to call us Bible-believing. We believe the 5 points of Calvinism, if you make the 5th Preservation rather than Perseverance. We believe it is Christ's perseverance that keepsus saved, not our own. If Christ is persevering, then that is the same as preserving because he can not fail.

Confessions:

I don't know of any church that doesn't have their own Articles of Faith. Each church writes their own and all are usually some form of all of the rest.

Social/Political Issues:

Very conservative, though in the South I would venture to say that there are as many Democrats as Republicans, especially in the older generation, simply because "that's what Papa was." My grandmother was an example of this until I had her watch John Kerry on the TV. She could not believe a Democrat could be for such things as abortion, gay marriage, etc, etc. It was shocking to her. Abortion and homosexuality are seldom preached on, but I have heard them on occassion. The pulpit is not a political forum.

Scholarship/Education:

I no of no Elder who went to a seminary, though I know of a good number who went to college for a different degree. I would say probably 40% of ministers in the PB church went to college. Our ministers our selected by watching them "grow" and preach for several congregations for many years. I would guess that on average an Elder excercises his gift for 10 years or more before being ordained.

Calling to Ministers:

Of course God does the calling, but the church does the recognizing. Most young men will be asked to take part in the services, take about 15 minutes or so before an Elder. This is how we determine who is called to preach. Those who are not will either show that they're not called (they won't be able to preach/the Spirit isn't there directing them) or they may ask the Elder not to call on them. There seems to usually be a "feeling" between the young man and the Elders of the church when he is called to preach. I can't explain it if you've never been in that position before.

Hope I haven't muddied the waters too much, but these are classic Old Baptist views.

Bro. James (we are sounding more like conservative Presbyterians in doctrine than modern Baptists )

 

[Bro. James Reed]

I forgot to add, we don't have musical instruments; we preach extemporaneously; we expect our members and our ministers to meet and hold biblical guidelines for remaining in the ministry and the church; we don't typically have full salaried ministers; we have congregational singing with no choirs or soloists; we don't have "altar calls" in the modern sense, but we always announce that the church doors are always open to receive new members if anyone wants to join; associations have no control whatsoever over the churches in them, other than to admit or dismiss them fro the association (infact, my church isn't even in one and never has been).

That's all I can think of at the moment.

God bless. Bro. James

PS My best friend is Presbyterian. He has been bugging me for years to go to church with him. His pastor is a woman and I rold him I could probably put up with a lot of the things there, but listening to a woman tryto preach is something I will not do. He asked me why, so I showed him in the scripture where a woman is not suffered to teach, nor to usurp a man's authority, and she is remain quiet in the church. My mother asked him ehat his church thought about that verse. He said, "I don't think we believe that part."

Maybe you had to be there.

(I forgive him for things like that, and I don't typically argue with him, because he's got a neurological disorder. He's also the nicest guy and the best friend I've ever had outside of my church family. I've known him since 6th grade. We were both teased a lot all through school and being friends made it easier to bear. I wish everyone could have a friend like that.) Anyway, that concludes my rant about friendship.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

James - You're right, in many ways you sound more Presbyterian than Baptist.

If you want to visit a Presbyterian church with your friend, you will feel more comfortable in either a PCA or an OPC church, which are more conservative denominations than the larger PCUSA denomination (that's not to say that there aren't good churches within the PCUSA). There are eight PCA churches in Houston - with the larger ones being SW Presbyterian, Christ the King, and Covenant.

Thanks for sharing about the Primitive Baptists - I learned something today.