Baptistries in ORBs

[convicted1]

I was reading a "closed" topic on the ORBs and noticed where someone had visited as ORB church in Michigan...posted in 11/05. He said he had never seen one in an ORB. The Sardis Association has at least one church-Turkey Creek- that does have one. My dad's home church-Pilgrim's Home- Brushy, Ky had debated about putting one in, but I don't think they have. One of the bretheren(sp?) talked about all the creeks where getting pretty nasty from all the raw sewage that was being put in the creeks due to people placing their sewage pipes directly into the creeks. I understand why they were debating this. I know a few people who have ORB churches in Michigan. Floyd Jude, Arvid Blevins, there is a man that goes by yhe name "Red", but can not remember his name. His home church is in Ypsilanti(sp?). Those churches are in different assoc. I am thinking that Floyd Jude is in the Union assoc and Arvid Blevins and "Red" are in Northern New Salem, or vice versa. Floyd was raised in Martin county, Ky and moved to Michigan around 1955 for work reasons. He has a lot of family in the Sardis assoc. He has went to Florida before to go to the two churches there, Okeechobee, and Southern Home in Sparr, Fl. There is one in Georgia as well...Charity in Greensboro, Fa. I can also understand why they have baptistries in Michigan. They have such horrible winters that it may be too hard to break the ice to baptize someone. When I was little, I would not even want to think about baptistries in church, but the older I get, the more I realize that the water is a outward symbol of an inward emotion, and if they want to be baptized in one, God will be OK with it. May God Bless! John 3:16 :1_grouphug:

 

[Brother Bob]

The Sardis don't have any on the inside of the churches. There are two in the Sardis and one is Turkey Creek as you say and the other one is your Dad's church, Pilgrim Home. Both of them are constructed outside of the church in the open, with a slide over cover.
The Red you speak of in Mich. is Gene Johnson and they call him "Red". Brother Floyd and Brother Gene are both in the Union and Brother Arvid Blevins is in the Northern New Salem.

 

[convicted1]

RE: Baptistries

Thank you for the correction on Floyd, Arvid, and "Red". I knew the two associations they were in, just didn't which one was in each. I did not know that Pilgrim's Home put a baptistry in. Twenty years ago no one would have ever even imagined an ORB church with a baptistry inside or outside of their church. This biggest problem with any church seems to be with "tradition"." If grandma and grandpa, and mom and dad believed it, then it's sound doctrine to me". People need to get in the bible and read for themselves and not listen to what their ancestors said or believed. It was traditions that helped nail Jesus to the cross. The Jews did not like him coming in and "upsetting the applecart". They wanted to do things their way and not have anything to do with his teachings. But those who did realize who He was, gave He power to become the Sons of God. But I don't think that by adding a baptristry makes the ORB any weaker than if they still used the creeks, rivers, or lakes. The water baptism is not for the putting away the filth of the flesh, but to answer a good conscience towards God. If you don't have it before you go to the water(baptistry, creek, river, lake, bathtub, etc) you won't have it when you come out. May God Bless!! John 3:16 :1_grouphug:

 

[Brother Bob]

Oh, I have baptized in bathtubs when it was not very well accepted, I have baptized in swimming pools of which still is not very well accepted, I have never baptized in a baptistry but I would. I still hold to the "old" way of a running stream if at all possible. When people are sick or dying, I do whatever I have to do, to get the baptized. Believe me, the baptistries are not too well accepted by most ORB that I am in correspondence with.

 

[convicted1]

RE:ORB Baptristries

I know that a lot of people would do it, a lot probably wouldn't. I understand it either way. It just shows how the ORBs are "progressing". A lot of the ancestors would be turning in their graves if they knew the ORBs were doing it, though. I would feel funny being baptized in anything other than free-flowing water...not hypocritical, just my opinion. I guess that by going to churches like Sidney, Buck Creek, Elizabeth, Leannah, and Little Rosie( the churches dad and mom took us to when we were likds) makes me feel kinda weird about baptistries. I truly see nothing wrong with it, I am just not accustomed to seeing people baptized in anything other than a creek. My wife's grandpa was baptized last year in a baptistry. It was the first baptism I saw this way and saw nothing wrong with it. It was just peculiar to me, not seeing it done this way before. For what it's worth, the baptistry was across the road from the church in their cafeteria. I know a Tri-State Zion preaher who is against them. His reason is that the baptism is the "liquid" grave for the old man, and the water, as it is flowing, takes it away. If he used a baptistry, it would be someone else's grave, too. I don't know about this doctrine, but it's his opinion. Well, I guess I have rambled on enough. May God Bless!! John 3:16 :1_grouphug:

 

[Fred Moritz]

Baptistries

I know that a lot of people would do it, a lot probably wouldn't. I understand it either way. It just shows how the ORBs are "progressing". A lot of the ancestors would be turning in their graves if they knew the ORBs were doing it, though. I would feel funny being baptized in anything other than free-flowing water...not hypocritical, just my opinion. I guess that by going to churches like Sidney, Buck Creek, Elizabeth, Leannah, and Little Rosie( the churches dad and mom took us to when we were likds) makes me feel kinda weird about baptistries. I truly see nothing wrong with it, I am just not accustomed to seeing people baptized in anything other than a creek. My wife's grandpa was baptized last year in a baptistry. It was the first baptism I saw this way and saw nothing wrong with it. It was just peculiar to me, not seeing it done this way before. For what it's worth, the baptistry was across the road from the church in their cafeteria. I know a Tri-State Zion preaher who is against them. His reason is that the baptism is the "liquid" grave for the old man, and the water, as it is flowing, takes it away. If he used a baptistry, it would be someone else's grave, too. I don't know about this doctrine, but it's his opinion. Well, I guess I have rambled on enough. May God Bless!! John 3:16 :1_grouphug:

I don't respond to these often, but I am amazed by this reply and Brother Bob's preceding one. Do you realize the way your replies have historical roots? To "do anything" to baptize the sick or dying looks like the old practice of "clinical baptisms" that arose early in church history, and which sprang out of the heresy of baptismal regeneration.

The concept of running water taking away the old man goes back to the Didache (about 125 AD) which again promoted the heresy of baptismal regeneration and the water washing the candidate's sins down stream. My wise seminary church history prof required us to read that forty years ago.

Amazing! What goes around comes around.

Beyond that, though John baptized in Jordan, don't you imagine that on the Day of Pentecost the believers used many of the pools around Jerusalem, which would not have been running water?

 

[Brother Bob]

Fred Moritz : The concept of running water taking away the old man goes back to the Didache (about 125 AD) which again promoted the heresy of baptismal regeneration and the water washing the candidate's sins down stream. My wise seminary church history prof required us to read that forty years ago.

convicted1 nor I said we believed that. It was something he had heard. If you really want to know what we believe, is that you must have the Holy Ghost baptism before being baptized in any water, a pool or running. We believe the water baptism is not the washing away the filth of the flesh, but the answering a good consequence towards God. We believe a canidate must have a good consequence before he can answer one. Also, I don't think convicted1 said anything about "washing away sins", just the symbol of leaving the "old man" in the grave and if it was running water then your grave would be gone when the next person came along. It was the thought of an Old United Baptist Preacher.

Forty years? That is not so long ago. I can assure you this practice is been in the Old Regular Baptist as far as I have been able to search out its History.

Now, from experience there is something about "running water" that seems to make it more in "like fashion of the Lord's baptism". He never sought out a pool. Don't you imagine there were pools around Jerusalem when He was on earth? What about a dying person, who dreamed of being baptized in a clear running creek and insisted it be that way? What would you do?

"To do anything to get them baptized", not sure if you got the meaning or not, but it was "to get those sick and dying" baptized, so they felt satisfied. You ever stand over someone dying, and all they wanted is to be baptized? You can't take them out of the hospital, so you use what ever means you have, to give that person "peace of mind". God Bless,

 

[rlvaughn]

Brother Bob or anyone else: do you think the use of baptisteries/pools could become a cause of division among Old Regular Baptist churches and associations?

 

[Brother Bob]

It already has in the New Salem Association and could very well happen. One church in the New Salem put in a baptistery and was asked by the Association to remove it and they refused. The Association then withdrew fellowship from that church. So far, that is the only case I know but I hear grumbling in our Association the Sardis, of the two we have outside.
Sometimes I think I know how the brethren will go on a given issue and get the biggest surprise in my life. One thing in our favor is the State making communities clean up the streams, but it will take a long time. The Sardis passed an order allowing them on the outside of the church but you know what the next step is.

 

[old regular]

baptisteries

Brother Vaughn, Baptisteries have and will continue to cause divisons among ORB's even the more liberal associations have problems with them.The Indian Bottom will let a sister trim her hair, but will not tolerate baptisteries, especially inside. Thorton Union, Northern New Salem, Union and Mountain Valley have churches that use them.Sovereign Grace Association does not use them, but they have never ruled on this issue.While we do not believe in baptismal regeneration,we would most likely do, what we could to baptize a dying man or woman by immersion back forth as to cover all, if that person requested it. Brother Slone

 

[Brother Bob]

Fred Moritz : The concept of running water taking away the old man goes back to the Didache (about 125 AD) which again promoted the heresy of baptismal regeneration and the water washing the candidate's sins down stream. My wise seminary church history prof required us to read that forty years ago.

Fred;
Maybe I spoke too fast but the heresy thing got me. I guess the practice goes all the way back to 120 AD or earlier. Only trouble the history we have is Catholic but I would imagine that others practiced it too. If someone is dying and requested baptism, I think any minister of God would try to make some kind of provision.
I would not go so far as sprinkling them or something like that but I have did it several times, even at homes in their own private bath tubs. They were beyond going to the water, so I did what I thought was right and it sure made a difference in every one I have conducted.
I sure don't feel bad over putting them under the water, even though it was in a tub or swimming pool.

 

[rsr]

The concept of running water taking away the old man goes back to the Didache (about 125 AD) which again promoted the heresy of baptismal regeneration and the water washing the candidate's sins down stream. My wise seminary church history prof required us to read that forty years ago.

Not to get too far afield, but I don't think the Didache promotes baptismal regeneration. The section deals only with the mode of baptism, not its sacramental nature.

And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit.

That early Christians would seek to emulate the baptism of Christ in the Jordan is only natural; the preference for "living" water also follows from the Jewish mikvah, which required water from a "natural" source, such as a river, spring or rainwater. That the forms of baptism preferred in the Didache also reflect the symbolism of carrying away sins seems to me in no way to require a sacramental understanding of the practice, but only a metaphorical one.

 

[Brother Bob]

Thanks rsr.........

 

[Bethelassoc]

Here in MO, our association's newer built churches have baptistries and it seems all the time we are told that baptising in the creeks is unhealthy.

Growing up, my home church used a pond near my home to baptize but in recent years the land was sold and the new owners told us "no", so when I was baptized, it was in an irrigation canal on a farm. It was running water and, man oh man, it was ice cold, even for July!

I agree with Brother Bob about fulfilling a request. You do what you can in the circumstances given. You want to follow the example that Christ gave but thankfully it wasn't a mandate to be in the Jordan River.

David

 

[convicted1]

RE: Baptistries in the ORB's

I know that a lot of people would do it, a lot probably wouldn't. I understand it either way. It just shows how the ORBs are "progressing". A lot of the ancestors would be turning in their graves if they knew the ORBs were doing it, though. I would feel funny being baptized in anything other than free-flowing water...not hypocritical, just my opinion. I guess that by going to churches like Sidney, Buck Creek, Elizabeth, Leannah, and Little Rosie( the churches dad and mom took us to when we were likds) makes me feel kinda weird about baptistries. I truly see nothing wrong with it, I am just not accustomed to seeing people baptized in anything other than a creek. My wife's grandpa was baptized last year in a baptistry. It was the first baptism I saw this way and saw nothing wrong with it. It was just peculiar to me, not seeing it done this way before. For what it's worth, the baptistry was across the road from the church in their cafeteria. I know a Tri-State Zion preaher who is against them. His reason is that the baptism is the "liquid" grave for the old man, and the water, as it is flowing, takes it away. If he used a baptistry, it would be someone else's grave, too. I don't know about this doctrine, but it's his opinion. Well, I guess I have rambled on enough. May God Bless!! John 3:16 :1_grouphug:

As you can tell by the picture, I was recently baptized in an ORB (outside) baptistry. It was such a beautiful day that day. The sun was shining bright, and it wasn't that hot, as best as I can remember. But it was a glorious day!! I felt nothing wrong with the baptistry, but I am sure someone out there, will see a fault with it. But I was saved by God, not by water.