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Baptists and tongues
- Thread starter mcdirector
- Start date
Hello Mc.
First, I believe those of today of tongues line up to Acts 2:6-8. ”Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?”
This quite a feat for here we have (looks to be about 120) those that were speaking in the native tongues of the thousands of Jews gathered in Jerusalem of all nation’s, with their tongues. Here we see no “interpreter” is needed as in the Power of the Holy Ghost, the speakers spoke in “foreign to them” tongues, and all understood in their own language.
But later we see that two (3 at most)of “tongues” spoke or “prophesied”, and one with the gift of “interpretation” was to be present, or those of “tongues” was to shut up, as has been pointed out here, and commune with God in silence.
We see this in I Corinthians as a number would began speaking in tongues, and it was mass confusion. So as not to hurt the cause of Christ, Paul issues instructions so the unlearned, the babes, and the unbelievers won’t think the “tonguers” have gone off their rockers. In 14:27-28 we find the solution, ”If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.” These people weren’t speaking to people, but to God.
There were two reasons for the “sign gifts” in that dispensation, and when they served their purpose, they were withdrawn. Those gifts are not needed today, for Christianity has spread over the whole world. But man today, and sometime back, has learned on their own to speak more than one language, and some can interpret for another. But none of those today are “psalmists, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, or hath an interpretation of prophets”, other than what is shown in scripture.
Scripture tells us tongues, as well as other gifts would end. I Corinthians 13:8, ” Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.” The “gift” of prophecy will fail when withdrawn. The gift to supernaturally talk in a foreign tongue unknown by the speaker is withdrawn; and the gift such as Peter had of knowing the mind of Ananias and Sapphira whom he condemned to death, will and did vanish.
In these last days won’t deceivers come among us, deceiving and being deceived? For the Christian, we are to discard such nonsense of tongues, and other gifts some claim to have. We have His Word, and we have Him for we are in His Body. We are saved now even as our bodies are dieing out. I choose this gift that He offers us today, not that of yesterdays “temporary” gifts that was given to point to Christ Jesus, and enable Christianity to come about. When that doubt comes, let’s put it to rest, and say that is what was then was, just as before the flood. That world is gone, and those gifts are gone, and we have the purpose of God, and that is Christ Jesus, His gift to us.
For a good work we are to lay bare the imposter/s, just as were Jannes and Jambres the magicians opposing Aaron and Moses shown to be what they were. We are to stand against that which is false. As long as they keep it among themselves they remain with their speaking to God, but not obeying when they have been told to “shut up”. Since they don’t understand this, it must not be God by which they have obtained their “tongues” they speak in. But when a Christian shows doubt we have to be able to stand to hold up the Christian until the doubt is removed. It is necessary we Christians sometimes arouse animus as we attempt to colligate in matters such as this.
Christian faith, ituttut
Drfuss, Paul was a brilliant linguist who spoke at the very least Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin and Greek fluently. These were his "tongues." The word "tongue" is the Greek word glossa and means almost invariably "language." If he spoke in a tongue in "intelligible words" in the church, why would it be "unintelligible words" when he prayed in private? I pray in a different tongue when I pray in Japanese. But it isn't anything unintelligible.
I find it bizarre that a missionary would want a "private prayer language." Why wouldn't a missionary want to spend more time on the intelligible language he can use to win the lost to Christ?
Historical fact: after the "Azusa Street Revival," Charles Parham and others taught that missionaries would not need to study the language of the land, but only be baptized with the Spirit and they would speak it miraculously. He held this view to his death. (Azusa Street and Beyond, ed. by L. Grant McClung Jr.--my edition is signed
; Logos: 1986;, in the preface by McClung, p. 13.) A bunch of Pentecostal missionaries headed for the field thinking they would see miracles without studying, but in January of 1908 one source reported 18 failures in China, Japan and India (ibid).You know what? The Pentecostals I went to Japanese language school with had to study full time for two years just like I did!!
I just think the whole Charismatic/pentecostal movement is bad doctrine.
2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
Bill Brown
New Member
At best that is inference, not proof of a private prayer language.
John of Japan writes:
"Drfuss, Paul was a brilliant linguist who spoke at the very least Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin and Greek fluently. These were his "tongues." The word "tongue" is the Greek word glossa and means almost invariably "language." If he spoke in a tongue in "intelligible words" in the church, why would it be "unintelligible words" when he prayed in private? I pray in a different tongue when I pray in Japanese. But it isn't anything unintelligible."
What a stretch of a scripture interpretation. Perhaps you didn't read that Paul's spirit prays when he speaks in tongues. Of course if you don't have a private prayer language, you wouldn't understand how edifying it is.
There are many christains that are drawn closer to God with the God given private prayer language. Stretching the scripture to claim it does not exist, makes no difference to those who have experienced it and have been edified by it.
"Drfuss, Paul was a brilliant linguist who spoke at the very least Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin and Greek fluently. These were his "tongues." The word "tongue" is the Greek word glossa and means almost invariably "language." If he spoke in a tongue in "intelligible words" in the church, why would it be "unintelligible words" when he prayed in private? I pray in a different tongue when I pray in Japanese. But it isn't anything unintelligible."
What a stretch of a scripture interpretation. Perhaps you didn't read that Paul's spirit prays when he speaks in tongues. Of course if you don't have a private prayer language, you wouldn't understand how edifying it is.
There are many christains that are drawn closer to God with the God given private prayer language. Stretching the scripture to claim it does not exist, makes no difference to those who have experienced it and have been edified by it.
Bill Brown
New Member
While not attacking the "sign" gifts, my major problem with the way they are approached today creates a caste system in Christianity. No matter how you slice or dice it, those who advocate the use of the gifts today do believe they are closer, more blessed or more obedient to God. I speak of the movement as a whole, not of specific individuals.
I have "enjoyed" some heated debates with Charismatics and Pentecostals. Putting aside the hersey that you must speak in tongues to be saved, the prevelant attitude (once you drill down past the fluff) is that those who do not speak in tongues are either missing out on a blessing or disobedient to God and grieving the Holy Spirit. That creates the caste system I wrote about...a community of have's and have-nots.
I have "enjoyed" some heated debates with Charismatics and Pentecostals. Putting aside the hersey that you must speak in tongues to be saved, the prevelant attitude (once you drill down past the fluff) is that those who do not speak in tongues are either missing out on a blessing or disobedient to God and grieving the Holy Spirit. That creates the caste system I wrote about...a community of have's and have-nots.
I would say this is the stretch.
Would anyone like to comment on first Corinthians 14:15 where Paul Says, what is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: It seems obvious from the above that there's a difference between praying with the spirit, and praying with the understanding. Would anyone want to address what the difference is?
James Robison:
"As I would preach, many times I would look at women eye-to-eye in the congregation. Demon spirits began to talk to me and, to my horror, I was unable to stop them."
"I knew then something had to happen to give me mental relief. What I needed was deliverance-but I didn’t even know it was a possibility."
"Much of what I called 'righteous indignation'
was really just 'meanness of the devil.'"
"I would get up to preach and I would think that the unction of the Spirit had come upon me; I would go into a rage and lash out at everybody. I thought it was the power of the Holy Spirit, but I found that this kind of rage is not the Holy Spirit."
Robison encountered a layman, Milton Green. He invited Green to visit with him. Green said:
"I’ve been listening to you and praying for you for six years. I feel so sorry for you. I’ve cast demons out of prisoners, convicts, murderers, witches, drug addicts and Hell’s Angels, but I believe you’re the most demonized person I’ve ever seen. You’re so tormented I don’t know how you’ve kept your sanity."
Robison told Green, "I have a claw in my brain."
Green prayed for Robison. Robison says,
"...two days later, back at home, I woke up and scriptures that I had never memorized were just flowing out of my mouth and tears were streaming down my face. I grabbed my wife and cried, 'Betty, it's gone.’ ‘What’s gone?’ she asked. ‘The claw in my brain,’ I said, ‘I’ve been set free.’ And since that day, the Word of God has come alive to me."
"As I would preach, many times I would look at women eye-to-eye in the congregation. Demon spirits began to talk to me and, to my horror, I was unable to stop them."
"I knew then something had to happen to give me mental relief. What I needed was deliverance-but I didn’t even know it was a possibility."
"Much of what I called 'righteous indignation'
was really just 'meanness of the devil.'"
"I would get up to preach and I would think that the unction of the Spirit had come upon me; I would go into a rage and lash out at everybody. I thought it was the power of the Holy Spirit, but I found that this kind of rage is not the Holy Spirit."
Robison encountered a layman, Milton Green. He invited Green to visit with him. Green said:
"I’ve been listening to you and praying for you for six years. I feel so sorry for you. I’ve cast demons out of prisoners, convicts, murderers, witches, drug addicts and Hell’s Angels, but I believe you’re the most demonized person I’ve ever seen. You’re so tormented I don’t know how you’ve kept your sanity."
Robison told Green, "I have a claw in my brain."
Green prayed for Robison. Robison says,
"...two days later, back at home, I woke up and scriptures that I had never memorized were just flowing out of my mouth and tears were streaming down my face. I grabbed my wife and cried, 'Betty, it's gone.’ ‘What’s gone?’ she asked. ‘The claw in my brain,’ I said, ‘I’ve been set free.’ And since that day, the Word of God has come alive to me."
Amen! To justify a "private prayer language" based on an interpretation of "tongues" from Paul is a stretch. Jesus told us EXACTLY how to pray..."Our Father who art in Heaven...". No "private prayer language being mentioned.Originally posted by Frenchy:
No such thing as a "private Prayer language"
all gifts were given for the EDIFICATION of the church. no such thing as a private gift!
no where can you find anyone having a private prayer language. not even Paul
Tom Butler
New Member
drfuss said:
If you have not had this experience personally, I' like to direct this question to anyone on the BB who has.
drfuss, my curiosity has been aroused here. Have you experienced a prayer language? If so, would you describe how it edified you? What was the tangible result? Was it a feeling, euphoria, exactly what?
If you have not had this experience personally, I' like to direct this question to anyone on the BB who has.
No, I think it is a stretch of Scripture interpretation when you take a word that is very plain in the Greek, meaning a language, and make it mean sounds spoken without meaning. The Bible even says specifically that the miraculous tongues of Acts 2 are real languages, understood by the hearers. What a travesty it is to take the same Greek word and make it mean "private prayer language" in 1 Cor. 14.
What Paul was saying in 1 Cor. 14 is, if I come into your service and pray in a real language you do not know, I will be praying with my spirit, but you will not understand me. There is no justification there for a private prayer language.
Can we look at this from another vantage point? The last vestige of those gifts of “miracles”, the “prophets and tongues and knowledge were removed by 100 A.D. John was the last, he that was allowed to “tarry” of those indwelled with the power of the Holy Ghost as known in those days. The gifts of healing, poisonous snake bites nothing to fear, and such ending when Paul reached Italy, the then capitol of the Gentile world.
Today is the time of the Holy Spirit of God, and through the faith of Jesus Christ we in the Body of Christ have the Spirit of “Life” in us for He has sealed us into the Body of Christ. This is our gift today. It is so much better than that which was given in order to make possible for God to reconcile the world unto Himself. I go to the Gentiles, for they will hear His Word says. God has made His own wife jealous as promised by removing them from the process of preaching the Word to the world. Their “tongue” has been silenced, that of the Pentecostal church of Jerusalem. God turned it over to we Gentiles, where Christians were first know in Antioch. It is from there that the “grace gospel of the Cross” spread; the Body of Christ, the rapture; the Gentile brought into the Temple, before barred from entering. None of this was known or possible until Israel was “cut-off”.
If “tongues” do live on then it is we, the Christian not claiming “tongues” to ourselves, but use our “tongues” to offer salvation, for that is what we use after we are saved to spread His Word. Words that can be made to be understandable to man, and not just to God. Every time we open our months and proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, we do confess with our “tongue”, and that confession will save lives for others will “hear the Word of The Lord from Heaven".
It would seem to me the Power of His Word is within us – not them.
Christian faith, ituttut
Tom butler writes:
drfuss, my curiosity has been aroused here. Have you experienced a prayer language? If so, would you describe how it edified you? What was the tangible result? Was it a feeling, euphoria, exactly what?
Fair question.
Like any good relationship experience, it is hard to describe.
The private prayer language sometimes occurs during my prayer time when I am exalting and praising the Lord. Over the past few years, I have first reserved a time of praising and exalting the Lord before making my prayer requests. While magnifying and praising the Lord, the Holy Spirit sometimes speaks through me allowing me to concentrate on how wonderful and great our God is. There is a spiritual uplift and feeling of closeness to the Lord. It helps me appreciate the greatness and magnificence of the Lord.
I do not feel that I am better than anyone who does not have a private prayer language. The Lord has blessed me with this; He probably gives others blessings that I don’t have. That is God’s prerogative.
As a side note, I try to spend as much time praising the Lord as time making prayer requests. In the past, I spent almost all of my prayer time as a "shopping list". We need to rejoice in the Lord and praise him.
drfuss, my curiosity has been aroused here. Have you experienced a prayer language? If so, would you describe how it edified you? What was the tangible result? Was it a feeling, euphoria, exactly what?
Fair question.
Like any good relationship experience, it is hard to describe.
The private prayer language sometimes occurs during my prayer time when I am exalting and praising the Lord. Over the past few years, I have first reserved a time of praising and exalting the Lord before making my prayer requests. While magnifying and praising the Lord, the Holy Spirit sometimes speaks through me allowing me to concentrate on how wonderful and great our God is. There is a spiritual uplift and feeling of closeness to the Lord. It helps me appreciate the greatness and magnificence of the Lord.
I do not feel that I am better than anyone who does not have a private prayer language. The Lord has blessed me with this; He probably gives others blessings that I don’t have. That is God’s prerogative.
As a side note, I try to spend as much time praising the Lord as time making prayer requests. In the past, I spent almost all of my prayer time as a "shopping list". We need to rejoice in the Lord and praise him.
Not to belittle what you say or your prayer life, but it really makes little difference if we have a “private prayer language” we have figured out. We are not to put too much stock into what we think we “have done” will make much difference in any outcome of having a specific “language”. If we do then our prayers will get no higher than our heads unless a connection is made.
Our personal private line to God the Father has an “operator” to screen all calls. There is only one way we down here can get to God up there through our Lord Jesus Christ. We in our feebleness need lots of help. We have the Holy Spirit to help us in this matter, for we have no idea of what we should even pray. Our hearts are searched, and the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us. Romans 8:26-27, ”Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.”
Today is not as before with God’s own people that they could ask and it would be done. Today it is according to what God will allow. It is the will of God that will be done, and all of our “time” setting of when we will pray, and when we will do that, or ask this or that is of little value as set forth in our own “made up language". It will be of whatever “comes” from the heart that reaches the ears of God, after made understandable and acceptable for presentation.
If your “private prayer language” begins in your heart and is not changed before offered to Him, then your “private prayer language” was made in your heart, and not your head. Ii is guaranteed to work, and the will of God will be done.
Christian faith, ituttut
Tom Butler
New Member
drfuss, thanks for answering my question about the results of prayer language. A few more questions, if you please:
1. Can you control it? Can you start it, stop it, or is it spontaneous?
2. If it is spontaneous and comes and goes without your control, would you be bothered by being controlled by something like this?
3. If you do control it, does this leave you open to criticism that you engage in a private prayer language as a a feel-good measure, somewhat self-indulgently.
Please don't take offense at the questions, they are not adversarial. I seek information from you about your experience, and reactions from those who read about them.
1. Can you control it? Can you start it, stop it, or is it spontaneous?
2. If it is spontaneous and comes and goes without your control, would you be bothered by being controlled by something like this?
3. If you do control it, does this leave you open to criticism that you engage in a private prayer language as a a feel-good measure, somewhat self-indulgently.
Please don't take offense at the questions, they are not adversarial. I seek information from you about your experience, and reactions from those who read about them.
If it is an unknown tongue, how do you know whether or not you are praising God with it? How do you know you are not reciting a Chinese shopping list?
If it is an unknown tongue, how do you know whether or not you are praising God with it? How do you know you are not reciting a Chinese shopping list?
</font>[/QUOTE]Because I could take that same Chinese shopping list and go shopping with it---and come home with something. But if I take the Jibber-Jabber and the Ba-Ba--Samma Cum Labba--somma Ba-Ba shopping with me----I will come home empty handed!!Com-pren-day????