Baptists Are Protestants

[melchizedeck]

Having Rome's favorite as your favorite is not the kind of thing God would want you to try to brag about is it?

I cannot make any sense about what you wrote. I said nothing about Rome's favorite or my favorite.

 

[melchizedeck]

Your denial of Jesus' Ability to Initiate and Perpetuate His Divine Institution as an Organized Witness to The World, as His Candlesticks, is that of Rome.

I have no doubt that God could create a world in which Baptists as an identifiable organization existed since the time of Christ. However, that is not the world that exists and that it does not exist and I acknowledge that does not compromise the sovereignty of God. If you were to say unicorns exist and I pointed out that there is not evidence of this does not mean that I believe God cannot have had a world in which unicorns exist.

It's just that unicorns don't exist. Baptists did not exists until the 1500s.

What you can write doesn't change The Bible or History any more than what someone else did or didn't write, supposedly.

You are attempting to write and promote a history that does not exist and is embarrassing to Baptists.

Jesus Has Been with His churches and you and I weren't there, and everywhere, to be knowledgeable and Testify to all of History.

And yet there is plenty of History to add credence to the position of church Perpetuity, along with The Bible, if someone first knows what a church is, in The Bible, and their devotion is not exclusively to Rome.

Then provide history. All you have done is said that the existence of two Gnostic sects and a group of Waldo's followers means Baptists have existed throughout time.

 

[Alan Gross]

I cannot make any sense about what you wrote. I said nothing about Rome's favorite or my favorite.

Your position of finding entertainment in denying The Bride of Christ is not Biblical.

Bible churches are Executive and not Legislative.

Therefore Rome's various herecies and those of her Harlot Daughters are not a concern to those devoted to denying The Bible Teachings on church Truth.

Neither is church Truth.

Rome, Satan, and the reasoning of the flesh is their premise.

Rome.

"noting the events occurring between the years A.D. 300 and 500. The Hierarchy organized under the leadership of Constantine, rapidly developed into what is now known as the Catholic church. This newly developing church joined to a temporal government, no longer simply an executive to carry out the completed laws of the New Testament, began to be legislative, amending or annulling old laws or enacting new ones utterly unknown to the New Testament.

24. One of the first of its legislative enactments, and one of the most subversive in its results, was the establishing by law of "infant baptism." By this new law, "Infant Baptism" becomes compulsory. This was done A.D. 416. Infants had been infrequently baptized for probably a century preceding this. Insofar as this newly enacted law became effective, two vital New Testament laws were abrogated--"Believers Baptism" and "Voluntary personal obedience in Baptism."

25. As an inevitable consequence of this new doctrine and law, these erring churches were soon filled with unconverted members. In fact, it was not very many years until probably a majority of the membership was composed of unconverted material. So the great spiritual affairs of God's great spiritual kingdom were in the hands of an unregenerate temporal power. What may now be expected?

26. Loyal Christians and churches, of course, rejected this new law. "Believers baptism," of course, "New Testament baptism," was the only law for them. They not only refused to baptize their own children, but believing in the baptism of believers only, they refused to accept the baptizing done by and within the churches of this unscriptural organization. If any of the members from the churches of this new organization attempted to join any of the churches which had refused to join in with the new organization, a Christian experience and a rebaptism was demanded.

27. The course followed by the loyal churches soon, of course, incurred the hot displeasure of the state religionists, many, if not most of whom, were not genuine Christians. The name "Christian," however, was from now on denied those loyal churches who refused to accept these new errors. They were robbed of that, and called by many other names, sometimes by one and sometimes by another, "Montanist," Tertullianists," "Novationists," "Paterines," etc., and some at least because of their practice of rebaptizing those who were baptized in infancy, were referred to an "Ana -Baptists."

28. A.D. 426, just ten years after the legal establishment of infant baptism, the awful period known as the "Dark Ages" had its beginning. What a period! How awfully black and bloody! From now on for more than a decade of centuries, the trail of loyal Christianity is largely washed away in its own blood. Note on the chart some of the many different names borne by the persecuted. Sometimes these names are given because of some specially heroic leader and sometimes from other causes, and frequently names for the same people vary in different countries and even in different centuries.

29. It was early in the period of the "dark ages" when real Popery had its definite beginnings. This was by Leo II, A.D. 440 to 461. This, however, was not the first time the title was ever used. This title, similar to the Catholic church itself, was largely a development. The name appears, as first applied to the Bishop of Rome 296-304. It was formally adopted by Siricius, Bishop of Rome 384-398. Then officially adopted by Leo II, 440-461. Then claimed to be universal, 707. Then some centuries later declared by Gregory VII to be the exclusive right of the papacy.

30. Now to sum up the most significant events of this first five-century period:

(1) The gradual change from a democracy to a preacher-church government.

(2) The change from salvation by grace to Baptismal Salvation.

(3) The change from "believers' baptism" to "infant baptism."

(4) The Hierarchy organized. Marriage of church and state.

(5) Seat of empire changed to Constantinople.

(6) Infant baptism established by law and made compulsory.

(7) Christians begin to persecute Christians.
(8) The "Dark Ages" begin 426.

(9) The sword and torch rather than the gospel become the power of God (?) unto salvation.

(10) All semblance of "Religious liberty" dies and is buried and remains buried for many centuries.

(11) Loyal New Testament churches, by whatever name called, are hunted and hounded to the utmost limit of the new Catholic temporal power. Remnants scattered over the world are finding uncertain hiding places in forests and mountains, valleys, dens and caves of the earth.

From: WordPress.com

 

[Alan Gross]

I have no doubt that God could create a world in which Baptists as an identifiable organization existed since the time of Christ. However, that is not the world that exists and that it does not exist and I acknowledge that does not compromise the sovereignty of God. If you were to say unicorns exist and I pointed out that there is not evidence of this does not mean that I believe God cannot have had a world in which unicorns exist.

It's just that unicorns don't exist. Baptists did not exists until the 1500s.



You are attempting to write and promote a history that does not exist and is embarrassing to Baptists.



Then provide history. All you have done is said that the existence of two Gnostic sects and a group of Waldo's followers means Baptists have existed throughout time.

There are verses in The Bible Regarding, "What God Defines as Jesus' churches".

When I wrote the title to this blog about The Lord's churches, I was not aware that I was simply dealing with Rome ( that title of frustration is seen at the link).

I learned about Rome during this thread and God's reason for their 'wise and prudent' remarks and inability to see the Words in The Book.

Those who have their fleshly allegence pledged to Rome are not interested in God's Eternal Word.

There is plenty of History and I have some threads in this 'Baptist History' section on Bible Proofs of Baptist Perpetuity.

THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION
of THE CHURCHES
of THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
The 'Unity' for which Christ Prayed seems to be

as sadly lacking among His followers

with respect to the church question as any other.

...

Jesus Christ's Prayer for 'Unity' among His people

has been a serious question to the author,

for a long time,

in the light of his belief

that Christ's Prayers are always effectual.

...

Modern Ecumenicalism

is not the answer to the problem

since it seeks

organic 'union' at the expense of truth.

...

In this chapter, we will try to arrive at

A Scriptural Definition
of The churches of The Lord Jesus Christ.
...

Please, Observe:

A. THE COLLOQUIAL USE
of THE WORD, 'CHURCH'.
...

1. 'The meeting house'

is familiarly spoken of as

A COLLOQUIAL USE
of THE WORD, 'CHURCH'.
...

But 'meeting house' is foreign

to any New Testament use of the word, 'church'.

The New Testament Church was not the house,

but "in the house." Romans 16:5;

"The churches of Asia salute you.

Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord,

with the church that is in their house"

(I Corinthians 16:19);

( And, we'll be talking about 'The Bible',

to arrive at

'A Scriptural Definition
of The churches of The Lord Jesus Christ',
so if you have No Use for The Bible,

you'll have to wait to know these Truth's

Regarding Jesus' Churches, at The Judgment.)

...

"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea,
and Nymphas,
and the church which is in his house"
(Colossians 4:15).

...
2. 'Christianity' is often

UNSCRIPTURALLY

referred to, with

The COLLOQUIAL USE
of THE WORD, 'CHURCH'.
to distinguish the followers of Christ

from the State

and from the World.

The COLLOQUIAL USE
of THE WORD, 'CHURCH',
in the expression
'Church history'

has been spoken of, therefore,

UNSCRIPTURALLY,

as nothing more than the history of Christianity,

as if 'church' and 'Christianity' are synonymous,

or 'interchangeable words'

However, 'church' and 'Christianity'

are NEVER 'interchangeable words'

and ARE NEVER THE SAME,

ACCORDING TO JESUS CHRIST

and THE BIBLE.

...
3. 'Denominations of Christians'

are commonly spoken of

using The COLLOQUIAL USE
of THE WORD, 'CHURCH',
as if embracing believers in

'Denominations of Christians'

as various groups

without regard to Faith and Practice,

IN SOME WAY

"PRONOUNCES" THEM 'churches' (?),

in some Biblical sense (!!!???),

when

'Denominations of Christians'

spoken of as 'churches'

in totally UNSCRIPTURAL

and has NOTHING to do with

God the Father,

Jesus Christ,

God the Holy Spirit,

or The BIBLE.

...
WordPress.com

 

[Alan Gross]

B. SOME MODERN NOTIONS OF THE Word 'CHURCH' that be Invented by Carnal man.

1. The Universal Visible Theory, also called the Imperial Theory. This finds expression in the Roman Catholic Hierarchy. The church is a visible empire with a visible human head.

2. The Universal Invisible Theory. This makes all the saved, members of the church.

3. The Church Branch Theory. This makes the various denominations mere branches of the main stem which no longer exists.

C. THE PRE-CHRISTIAN USE OF THE WORD 'CHURCH'.

The word church comes from the Greek word ekklesia, which means to call out for the purpose of assembling.

The government of ancient Greek cities was democratic, being administered by duly qualified citizens in a lawful assembly, called together from time to time to transact business for the public good.

And this assembly was called an ekklesia. The Greek word ekklesia in itself has no religious connotation. It simply means assembly regardless of the kind.

In Acts 19:39 "But if ye inquire any thing concerning other matters, it shall be determined in a lawful assembly" it is used of the Greek assembly corresponding somewhat to our city council or board of aldermen.

The word ekklesia is also used of the church (congregation) in the wilderness (Acts 7:38).

By accommodation ekklesia is applied to the mob gathered against Paul at Ephesus.

In Acts 19:32, we read that the ekklesia (assembly) "was confused," referring to the mob or unlawful assembly.

The townclerk told Demetrius and his craft to take their complaint against Paul to the lawful ekklesia (assembly).

And having restored order, the townclerk
dismissed the ekklesia (mob).

"And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the assembly" (Acts 19:41).

D. THE EKKLESIA OR ASSEMBLY OF CHRIST is God's Idea of the word, 'church and' churches'.

The English word church comes from the Greek word kuriakon, which means "of or belonging to the Lord." Kuriakon occurs only two times in the Greek New Testament.

It is used of the Lord's Supper (I Cor.ll:20), and of the Lord's Day (Rev. 1:10).

It is never translated church in the New Testament.

Kuriakon was used by the early Greek Christians for the Lord's house or meeting place. The Teutonic tribes, when converted to Christianity, adopted this Greek word for their house of worship.

It is found in the German Kirche, the Scottish Kirk, and the Anglo-Saxon Circe.

The Greeks never employed kuriakon for the people, but only for the house.

In using the word ekklesia Christ did not coin a new word, but a word in current use and easily understood by both Jew and Greek.

He did not employ the word kuriakon, but ekklesia which can only refer to people, a people called out to form an assembly.

In response to Peter's confession of His deity, Christ said, "Thou art Peter (petrol) and upon this rock (petra) I will build MY ekklesia (assembly)." Matt 16:18.

He thus distinguished between His assembly and other assemblies.

Paul makes the same distinction in his letter to the Thessalonians.

He writes to the ekklesia which is in God the Father (this distinguishes it from the Greek political assembly), and "in the Lord Jesus Christ," which also distinguishes it from the Jewish synagogue.

In this way Paul made sure that his letter would reach the right assembly.

In the Greek New Testament the noun ekklesia occurs 115 times.

It is translated church 112 times and assembly three times.

The word church actually occurs 113 times in our King James Bible, but in Acts 19:37 it is not ekklesia but the word
for temples.

The King James translators tried to use church for ekklesia in all cases, but in Acts 19:32, 39, 41 to do so would have been manifestly absurd; and so in these instances they had to give the correct rendering; ASSEMBLY.

Christ Himself set us the pattern for the use of the word ekklesia. In Matt. 16:18 when He said, "I will build my church (ekklesia)."

He used the word abstractly of an institution, without defining, particularizing, or locating it.

Just as we speak of the American home, the American boy, and other institutions without referring to any particular home or boy. In Matt. 18:17 our Lord used the word ekklesia (assembly) in the concrete sense of a particular assembly to which one might tell his grievances.

And so when Christ's ekklesia, as an institution, becomes concrete and operational it is an actual assembly of His followers in organized capacity.

It is a visible organization seems necessary inasmuch as it is composed of visible people.

J. W. Porter says, "If there is any other sort of church than that of a visible congregation, revelation and investigation have alike failed to locate its whereabouts or define its functions.

Such an inconceivable, intangible, invisible concern as the imaginary invisible church has never been known to convert anybody or to perform any functions of an actual church."

When Christ said, "Upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell (hades) shall not prevail against it," Matt 16:18.

He was speaking of the church prospectively something to be built "I will build."

The church was a concept in the mind of Christ just as the building is a concept in the mind of the architect before it is erected.

Christ saw all the material that was to make up this holy sanctuary, every living stone that would go into it, before it had been quarried from the hard rock of sinful humanity.

"Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it
to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish" (Eph. 5:25-27).

Same reference as previous post by me and more info on that blog page.