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Baptists, Catholics and error

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Bro. Curtis, May 19, 2003.

  1. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    I have no misconception. You changed the word and now want to stick by it.
     
  2. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Thessolonians,

    Hello there,

    1) 1st of all, just for the record, I couldnt care less about my credibility. Its of no concern to me what you, or anyone else think of D28guy. I seek to be a God pleaser, not a man pleaser.

    2) I have been frequenting discussion boards like this one for several years now, and "cutting and pasting" is a normal thing. Get over it.

    3) Regarding the link, that was an oversite. I thought I did provide it. My apologies. (It was late, and I was tired)

    Here is the link... click here

    Thats not what I said. I said that every other CC apologist admits that much of what the CC believes is not found in the scriptures, but comes from "sacred tradition". Someone, I think Carson, said that everything the CC teaches is biblical. If that were true, then Catholics would not be vehemently anti "sola scriptura", wouldnt they? But catholics are vehemently anti "sola scriptura". Every catholic apologist I have ever encountered admits that much of what the the CC teaches is not found in the bible.

    Could you please, by the way, give me book chapter and verse for where we are clearly instructed regarding the rosary,(not prayer...the rosary) scapulars, the immaculate conception, the "assumption" of Mary into heaven, calling pastors "priests", and "purgatory"? Not a vague passage that can only mean that if seen through the eyes of CC "tradition".

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  3. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    I can't help but chuckle when a "sola scriptura" devotee changes the very
    words of Scripture.


    I can't help but chuckle that thousands upon thousands were saved before
    either the bible OR the Catholic Church ever existed.

    Unchurched Singer

    ;)
     
  4. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    Thanks for the links.

    Here is what you have said.

    "All the rest readilly admit that a huge part of Catholicism has not the TINIEST bit of scriptural support. They say that it doesnt matter, it became part of the supposed "sacred tradition" so it is therefore true."


    " I said that every other CC apologist admits that much of what the CC believes is not found in the scriptures, but comes from "sacred tradition". "

    I am glad that you don't care about your integrity because both of these statements once again call it in to question. Both of these statements have come out of irrational exuberance and missunderstanding of one who has his hands over his ears. I have never heard a Catholic Apologist say anywhere near what you have said. Sacred tradition is in concert with scripture. It is not separate revalatoin or new revalation or additions to scripture. Scripture and sacred tradition make up the Word of God, for sacred tradition is the proper understanding of scripture that has been passed down. For a Catholic Apologist to say the words you have put in his mouth would be ridiculous. What good is a true scripture verse if one has a false understanding of it (and we know there are many that are missunderstood in Protestantism). Anyway, I look forward to our conversations but do try to stay on topic.
     
  5. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Every catholic apologist I have ever encountered admits that much of what the the CC teaches is not found in the bible.

    Well Mike, it's time to change your existential frame of mind concerning apologists because this particular apologist emphatically disagrees.

    Could you please, by the way, give me book chapter and verse for where we are clearly instructed..

    The Bible isn't a catechism. If it were, it would have clear instructions on all doctrines & dogma. The Bible is divine revelation, which must be interpreted and formulated into clear instruction. Many times, truths are taught implicitly and not explicitly (e.g. the Holy Spirit's personhood).

    regarding the rosary,(not prayer...the rosary)

    But, the Rosary is prayer. This is like saying, "regarding Jesus, not God, but Jesus". That's ridiculous.

    scapulars

    which is a devotion

    the immaculate conception

    This is an implicit truth taught by Scripture. It is prophesied in Gen 3:15, and Mary is portrayed as the New Eve in John's Gospel and Apocalypsis.

    the "assumption" of Mary into heaven

    The "woman" in Revelation 12 is Mary. She is in heaven with a body.

    calling pastors "priests"

    Priest is the english translation of "presbyteroi" in the New Testament. Go to Dictionary.com and look for a definition on "priest" and you'll see the etymological background. I'm not kidding. Go see for yourself.

    and "purgatory"?

    1 Cor 3:15
     
  6. trying2understand

    trying2understand New Member

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    And while you're at it throw in "Trinity", "altar calls" and "sola scriptura". ;)
     
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    I have no misconception. You changed the word and now want to stick by it. </font>[/QUOTE]Sounds to me that you are the "sola scriptura" geek! We should be having this conversation in the original greek!
     
  8. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    ...........and for the basis of OSAS see:

    1 Cor 3:15 ;)
     
  9. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Ya can't go there, Carson says that is purgatory!
     
  10. RaptureReady

    RaptureReady New Member

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    Carson,
    Are you saying that the catholic church/tradition overrules scripture?

    BTW, I don't know anyone from the 1500s.

    I ain't got a clue what you just said. Simple man, that I am.
     
  11. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Are you saying that the catholic church/tradition overrules scripture?

    Absolutely not. Scripture is divine revelation, and it has primacy. I, as a Catholic, hold to Prima Scriptura.

    BTW, I don't know anyone from the 1500s.

    That's why we have the joy of books.. so that the men of today are unable to oust the vote of those who have gone before. Tradition provides us with a democracy in lieu of the authoritarian voices of those who refuse to acknowledge those who have gone before them.
     
  12. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    That's why we have the joy of books.. so that the men of today are
    unable to oust the vote of those who have gone before. Tradition provides
    us with a democracy in lieu of the authoritarian voices of those who refuse
    to acknowledge those who have gone before them.


    One History Book (the bible) quoted Paul as saying:

    "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
    in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
    Romans 10:9

    That act is documentable in time (when) and has immediate and lasting
    effects (salvation).

    We accept from Paul (who came before us) the truth (without being tainted with
    Catholicsim) by reading the bible.

    Is there a better way?
     
  13. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Nope.

    Its Gods way.

    And again, we have before us Gods way, faith alone and scriptures alone, and mans way, faith plus works, and scriptures plus the traditions of men.

    Who are we going to choose?

    Mike
     
  14. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    I ain't got a clue what you just said. Simple man, that I am.

    Well Brazen-Up my Friend; dontcha know ya gotta understand 2000
    centuries of volumes of writings by various Saints belonging to the RCC
    Club who use words that this ole logger tain't never heard of nor never will.......

    ............IN ORDER TO BE SAVED (Maybe), IF YOU PERSEVERE IN GOOD WORKS AND
    JOIN A CERTAIN CHURCH AND DON'T MISS MASS AND CONSIDER BREAD IS MEAT AND WINE IS BLOOD AND THAT THE PURPOSE OF CREATION WAS TO ORGANIZE THE
    CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THAT BAPTISM SAVES AND YOUR COUSIN CAN FORGIVE YOUR SINS AND SOME GUY IN ROME DESERVES TO BE CALLED YOUR FATHER AND THAT BAPTISM BY DESIRE IS ABOUT AS GOOD AS BAPTISM AND THAT THE DEAD SIT AROUND PRAYING FOR US..........

    You still with me...?
     
  15. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    Sounds impossible doesn't it. It would be much easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle in fact. Fortunately for us when we commit to obedience he gives us the grace to obey. When we commit to doing good it is not us but him in us doing the good. How does he get in? Well, it has something to do with that bread and wine deal you were poo pooing above. That is what faith is all about singer. Following him, trusting in him and doing the will of the Father, knowing that he is always at our side and we need not fear the dark of night, nor the arrow that flies by day.
    [​IMG]

    Bless ya singer
     
  16. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Thessalonian,
    Oh foolishness!

    Committment in any endeavor is met with success whether or not the endeavor is religious in nature! So don't Blame God if you are successful in your personal endeavor! Don't give Him the credit for your personal success either, that is deceipt! If one commits to do good works the one will succeed in accomplishing those works, but that does not mean that God was in it!

    Faith is not about bread and wine! Bread and wine can be made anything you want them to be if you have faith!

    Now you have said one thing that is true, following Him, Trusting in Him and doing the will of the Father, Knowing that he is always at our side we need not fear the dark of night, nor the arror that flies by day!
     
  17. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    "If one commits to do good works the one will succeed in accomplishing those works, but that does not mean that God was in it! "

    Horsehockey and handwaving is all you have given us!

    If the works were good as you say they were then God must have been in it. The works are not good works if God is not involved. They may seem like good works but they are not.

    Matthew 7:18
    "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

    Yes, one may accomplish the works but they will not be good.

    Further, if it is of God there will be much good fruit.

    Mark 4:20
    "And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold."
     
  18. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Take your religious blinders off! There are many good works, works that benefit other than perpetrator of the works, that are accomplished without the name of God being invoked once that are equal to works done in the name of the Lord.

    The works that have lasting value that are considered good in the sight of God are those that fit within the great commission, the winning of souls for the Bride of Christ, the giving of water to the thirsty, the clothing of the naked, the feeding of the hungry, the healing of the lame, the giving of vision to the blind. There are many secular, non-church persons and organization that do all but the winning of souls for the Bride of Christ.

    Any works that benefit others in an honest and compassionate manner are good works.
     
  19. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    (Thes)

    Sounds impossible doesn't it. It would be much easier for a camel to
    pass through the eye of a needle in fact. Fortunately for us when we commit
    to obedience he gives us the grace to obey.


    (Singer)

    Problem with that obedience thing Thes, is the fact that obedience to you varies
    greatly according to what I consider obedience.

    You are pursuing Catholic obedience (mass, hailing Mary, rosary, mind games
    with the eucharist that I've never heard of, confession boxs, honoring the pope, looking to Peter as the rock, thinking that Jesus started the Catholic
    denomination, considering this and that differently, etc.

    I do none of those; yet have found peace in my soul when I turned my life
    over to God, accept my salvation on faith in the risen savior, know that He
    hears my prayers, know that I have eternal life according to "He who has the
    Son has life". Step by step it works for me and God is faithful to us. Scripture
    was not addressing Catholics when quoted. Matter of fact the Catholic Church
    didn't exist when any scripture was written. If it was such a huge issue (the purpose
    of creation was to form the Catholic Church).....wouldn't God have inspired
    SOMEONE to peep even a hint of its importance?

    Instead, the bible is centered around the man, Jesus Christ who as God in
    the flesh came to earth to offer himself a sacrifice; giving eternal life to
    "whoever shall believe".

    Shall believe what ?

    Shall believe that he rose from the dead / is the son of God.

    I'm sorry, but I don't have time to pursue all the obediences of the
    Catholic Church; nor do I deem them necessary to my salvation.
    I could never stuff that camel through the eye of a needle, so I'll just
    rely on Jesus' raising from the dead.....that's even more amazing !!!
    Now THAT impresses me...not rules and regulations. :D

    [ May 21, 2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Singer ]
     
  20. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    So in other words, if you had been around when Jesus handed the keys to St. Peter, when Peter actually used that authority given to him, you would not have listened nor obeyed, correct?

    When the apostles met in Jerusalem for the first church council, if you didn't agree with everything they said, you would not have obeyed, right?

    When St. Paul wrote his corrective epistles, sternly admonishing believers in various parishes on how to conduct themselves, you would have said "Well, WHO does he think he is to tell ME what to do?"

    Right?

    Which means that when it is all said and done, you are STILL a rebel by definition. You think your way is THE way and that NO ONE should be allowed to tell you what to do, even those who have been ordained of God to do so.

    Man, I am sure glad I will not be in YOUR SHOES when I stand before Jesus!!!! (Although my own sins will have me in serious enough time im purgatory!)

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
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