Baptists, Catholics and error

At least I have the sense to admit when I do not know something, as opposed to so many teachers who are blithering idiots without a clue, but who act as if they are really smart people. As I said, if these teachings were so clear in the original Greek, then why did the Early Church set up an episcopal form of governance with a supreme bishop instead of some baptistic or congregational form?

You know, I don't know tenses in Greek, but I do know how to use a Concordance, and I have seen things spoken of by so called teachers that just make me wonder what Bible they are reading.

I learned it from you, pallie boy, and you are a great teacher when it comes to that form of dialogue.

 

And you have the nerve to accuse me of isogesis and making up doctrines out of whole cloth!!!


Mt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Lu 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Re 3:7 ¶ And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Re 9:1 ¶ And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to
him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Re 20:1 ¶ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

There are 6 different verses which use the word "key" or "keys" and they all have different meanings. The only thing that they have in common is that there is an ability to unlock something.

Now by your definition, knowledge is the way into HELL, according to the definitions in the book of the Revelation.

The household of God in the New Covenant is the Kingdom of David which is ruled over by the Son of David. His prime minister is given the key to the household, and this was prophesied in the OT You keep trying to make the kingdom something else than what it is. God promised it to King David and further said that it would be a kingdom which encompassed all nations.

And yes, Scott Hahn would hand Robertson his lunch in a brown paper bag. I just wish I had half the knowledge Hahn has so I could do it myself.

 

Mike, I assert again that the fact that the word "keys" is in the plural is irrelevant to the teaching in the verse. Using an open mind consider this carefully. What is the purpose of a key? Normally keys open doors. They permit entrance. A key is used for entrance. The keys of the kingdom were given to give access or entrance to the kingdom of God. How was this possible?
It is only possible through the gospel. Jesus said:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The Pharisees, scribes, and lawyers kept this knowledge away from the people. By doing so they kept the people from hearing the knowledge about faith in Jehovah that would have gained them entrance into Heaven.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.
--The key here is obviously the key of knowledge as Jesus defines it, and it gives entrance into the kingdom. A key gives entrance. All keys do. It doesn't matter whether they are plural or singular.

A good example of Peter using these keys is on the Day of Pentecost where he preached the gospel and 3,000 people were saved.
DHK

 

We can agree here. Keys are used to unlock. They are therefore used as a means of entrance. The keys of kingdom was the knowledge necessary to enter the Kingdom of God--the gospel. The key of knowledge is the term used in Luke 11:52--a term for entrance to either keep one out of the kingdom or let one into the kingdom.

If you throw away the key, reject the gospel, reject Christ, yes you will end up in Hell.

This is your covenant theology which is not necessarily true. The household of God in the New Testament is not the Kingdom of David. You have no proof or evidence of this. It is a false theology. The kingdom is something else than you say it is. You are the one that is very confused on this subject, and what the kingdom is. Unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. And this verse (John 3:3) has nothing to do with the Jewish covenant. The covenant made with King David
is yet to be fulfilled. The Messiah which the Jews rejected 2,000 years ago, will still come again. "And every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him." That has not happened yet. Can you verify that it has, if you believe it has?
DHK

 

I find myself amazed that you can make such a statement. The promise of God Himself are based upon God's covenant relationships. How can you read Genesis 12 - 17 and not see God acting in a covenantal framework? How can you read Deut. 28 and not see Him dealing with the Jews in a covenantal framework? How can you read Jesus' pronouncements in the Upper Room ("this is the New Covenant in my Blood...") and not see the whole idea of covenant and covenantal relationships coming right into Christianity?

I simply do not understand such a statement, DHK.

 

I find myself amazed that you can make such a statement. The promise of God Himself are based upon God's covenant relationships. How can you read Genesis 12 - 17 and not see God acting in a covenantal framework? How can you read Deut. 28 and not see Him dealing with the Jews in a covenantal framework? </font>[/QUOTE]I do Ed. He definitely works in a covenantal framework with the Jews. I believe that the doctrine known as Replacement Theology, that the Churhch has replaced Israel is both anti-Semitic and heretical. The Jews, as a nation still esist today. God did give them a covenant in the days of Abraham. He reaffirmed it with Isaac, and with Jacob. He also gave the same covenant to David. It is for David's sake that the Messiah will some day sit on the throne of David and rule the world in righteousness. That day has not come yet. You ought to go over the words of the song, "Joy to the World, the Lord has come." It is not a Christmas talking of the birth of Christ. Read the worrds carefully. It is talking of the second coming when Christ will set up His Kingdom in peace, and rule the world in perfect peace. There is plenty of Scriture to point these things out. Study out Isaiah 64 to 66. The covenant was and is with the Jews, and never was with the Gentiles.

Jer.31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The covenant is with the nation of Israel, and again is reaffirmed here with the prophet Jeremiah.

Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This covenant that Paul refers to is with the nation of Israel only. It has nothing to with the believers of the New Testament. It is still the same covenant made with Israel.

And here is the fulfillment of it:
Re.1:77 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is a future event. "They also which pierced him," referring to the nation of Israel, shall see Jesus when he comes with the glory of his holy angels (Mark 8:38).
The covenant is with the Jews, and is yet to be fulfilled
DHK

 

The power of binding and losing is not given only to St. Peter.

Please consider the following verses:

Mat. 16:18,19
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat. 18:17-19

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

 

DHK --

We keep going around in circles on this. In Matthew 21, Jesus prophesies the removal of the Jews from their covenantal relationship as the administrators of the kingdom. I don't under....

well, I guess I do understand how you don't see it because you continue to get the ethnic people - the Jews - mixed up with Israel - the people of God.

You know, Scripture also says this:

Mt 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

If you do not accept that the Church is Israel, then the above verse teaches that Christ's rule is only over the Jews and not over us.

My people Israel. In the New Covenant, the people of God consist of every nation and tribe under the sun. No longer is the covenant restricted to the Jews.

And as for the covenant being made with the Jews -- THEY BROKE IT!!

Go back and read Deut. 28 and the promise of cursing which was warned to fall upon them as a nation if they did not stay faithful.

The language of the OT speaks of the Jewish nation as the "Bride of God". Yet Christ has taken the Church as His Bride, has He not? Is Christ an adulterer?

No, He gave national Israel a divorce and put her away for her unfaithfulness.

 

I am a minister of the Christian Gospel and am approaching sixty years of age.
I see so many Protestant Churches that are a part of the apostasy and are unworthy of being called a church. The social Gospel has overtaken some of our denominations to the point where the ministers could not even lead a soul to Christ, if a sinner asked to be saved.

Personally, I don't see any Protestant denominations, or including Roman Catholic, as being the agent by which our souls will be saved. I believe that Jesus is our only Advocate by which sinners can be saved. [I John 2:1; John 3:16; John 14:6; I Corinthians 3:11] We are only saved by placing our faith/trust in Jesus Christ for our hope of Heaven. [Romans 5:1]

Hopefully, there is enough of the Gospel in some Protestant & Roman Catholic churches that will portray 'the church' as a lighthouse that will lead men and women to the Lord God.

In other words, if Jesus does not save us, in that which we call time, He will not save us at the judgment; no ecclesiastical organization is going to bring about our final salvation. Salvation is of/from the Lord. [Psalm 3:8]

I. Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

(Eph 5:23) For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

 

Romans

11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

Israel will not be forgotten by God. His covenant with them is everlasting.

Jeremiah
32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: 32:38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: 32:39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.


Revelation
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

 

Faithcontender,

I agree with you that God is not finished with the Israelite people or as some say the Jews. They will be reengrafted 'into their own olive tree.' [Romans 11:24] Their blindness Paul says is 'in part' and will be revisited by the Lord 'when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.' [vs. 25] After the Lord comes for His church [I Thess. 4:17] God is going to bring the Israelite people into His fold and even into the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. [Zechariah 14:9 & 17]

To me it is interesting that God gave the land of Canaan/Israel to Abram [Genesis 12:7] before He made the everlasting covenant with Abram. [Genesis 17:7] God also made the everlasting covenant with Isaac and to his progeny, [Genesis 17:19 & 21] even before his birth. This was promised to Abraham. [vs. 19]

My point is and I am sure that you will agree with this is that because made an everlasting covenant with Abraham, that covenant is never over or ended. And because it is not ended God again is right when He speaks through the Apostle Paul when he said that 'God is able to graft them in again.' [Romans 11:23]

My question is for Calvinists who believe in the Great Tribulation and Millennial reign of Christ, do they consider those saved during the two time slots mention above, as Christ's elect?