Baptists who don't believe in Hell?

[John Wells]

Ken,

But what about the ones who die without "Confessing Christ Jesus as Savior?" I've heard some universalists say that after a period of torment in hell, all will confess Jesus as Savior, and will escape hell to heaven. While that is a commendable thought and would be nice if it were so, there is no (zero) revelation from God to indicate that is part of His redemptive plan.

I offer you the most known (but least properly understood) verse of scripture to answer from a universalist's perspective:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that _____________in him shall not perish but have eternal life." -- John 3:16 (NIV)

The correct answer to the blank is:

A) "all" will believe
B) "the world" will believe
C) whoever believes

Now if the answer is not one of the all inclusive ones, then "shall not perish" and "have eternal life" is not inclusive either!

 

[John Wells]

Ken,

I recommend you study the subjects of "the wrath of God" and "the righteousness of God," and balance those with "the love of God." The problem with "country club Christianity" today is these folks want 99% "God is love," and 1% "God is righteous." Forget "the wrath of God." But if you take the Bible as a whole, there is a whole lot of wrath in there. In fact, aren't you glad God poured out His wrath on His Son? Jesus did bear the Father's wrath for the whole world, but it takes the subjective "believe" that John 3:16 speaks to in order to qualify for God's grace.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. -- John 3:18 (NIV)

Ken, I don't know how clearer John 3:16,18 can be. I'm done because it will be as clear to you as you want it to be. I apologize for being a little "hot" toward you earlier. I just agonize to see clear scriptural teaching so badly misunderstood.

 

[John Wells]

Dallas,

Regarding 1 Cor 15:22, here is a quote from Dr. John MacArthur:

all … all. The two “alls” are alike only in the sense that they both apply to descendants. The second “all” applies only to believers (see Gal. 3:26, 29; 4:7; Eph. 3:6; cf. Acts 20:32; Titus 3:7) and does not imply universalism (the salvation of everyone without faith). Countless other passages clearly teach the eternal punishment of the unbelieving (e.g., Matt. 5:29; 10:28; 25:41, 46; Luke 16:23; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:15).

Here again, universalists cling to a few "all" passages to create a heretic rendering of the gospel. Compare/balance your few "all" passages with the hundreds of passages promising everlasting punishment for those who die rejecting God's grace. Then do a study on the use of "all" in the Bible and see how unreliable it is to assign universal inclusivity to its use.

 

[Me2]

Hi John,
Ill field the John 3:18 Quote.

taking this verse in context. It is given to the people whom God has chosen to be a part of his family. They are all saved babes in christ. Growing into Children.

In 1 John He speaks in references to children and young men and fathers. to children specifically there are many admonitions. mostly to love the brothern.to abstain from works of the flesh, idols (things used as crutches to twart Gods will) and antichrists.

these things are to be tested to determine if his children understand what is being Taught.

some succeed this trial..and others fail..

now back to your verse John 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

remember their faith is being tried here..what they have held on to. keep in mind that Jesus christ is their high priest. they prey to him and he goes before the father...The answer that Jesus gives them is what is believed or not..or in another way of expressing this..the person of whom the reply is coming from..the "name"

another hint is the goal..if this trial is completed successfully..Jesus becomes the childs Lord..The holy spirit "Dwells" within them. and they become a member of the elect. This is the turning point of focus in many christians lives..

yet the statements..many called,few chosen..points towards few successfully passing this juncture or trial.

 

[John Wells]

Originally posted by Me2:
yet the statements..many called,few chosen..points towards few successfully passing this juncture or trial.

I would agree with that. The Bible would agree with that as in:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. -- Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV)

But why do I have this feeling that you don't?

BTW, which answer did you choose on my John 3:16 fill in the blank? Is this "Jesus statement" not also clear?

 

[Me2]

Good observation John,
but That scripture points to the same idea...

but heres a little stranger story concerning doors... your standing inside the OT tabernacle court.
to one side you see a veil leading to the outside world...and looking in the other direction is the tabernacle door..the narrower doorway..where only anointed priests may enter.
you are adopted into the family of levites..priests and your future lies on being trained to serve the temple... I know strange..

and the tabernacle doorway is in fact...narrower.
even inside the tabernacle..the next doorway
leading to the holy of holies is even narrower.

we're talking jews and their traditions, their history..jesus parables usues many OT tabernacle and temple references. that's the closest I can relate those verses to.

remember jesus calling himself the "door".

same door. the one leading into the tabernacle.

 

[John Wells]

Me2,

Not to offend, but I observe you constantly using scripture to launch into imaginations and imagery which evolve into your own ideas and thus your hermeneutic of scriptures. Very dangerous way to discern God's truth. Still looking for your answer to John 3:16, hopefully without an allegorical twist.

 

[Me2]

Hi John,
Im Not offended..these are my words..or would you like me to post only scripture and make you guess what I see in Gods word..I give you a looksee into what I see as Specifics.

That is the same door that jesus calls himself in mat7:13-14 whether you see it or not. its a parable illuding to something else..whereas if someone researched the OT tabernacle..they would see the similarities I do.

John 3:16 is as I stated earlier..verse 16 to 21
referring to Gods children and that they are to be tried. some will choose to add law to grace and be condemned within their very thoughts before they enter into their trial by the Holy Spirit.
while others within the family will be successful.

presenting oneself as someone who loves their brother is the key..(that means not condemning them for their choices) offering forgivenss and mercy.

light selflessness..darkness selfishness
light mercy and forgiveness..darkness..judgingment
light..grace...darkness..laws

those not coming into the light...geez another word pointing to the tabernacle..the light is inside the tabernacle.the light from the "candlesticks". and you cant enter into the tabernacle unless jesus is Lord of your life and you have been anointed and set apart by God to enter.

which means..the standing in front of the tabernacle veil would give one the idea their faith towards Gods sovereignty and character has been proven by God and they have been anointed BY THE HOLY SPIRIT and allowed to enter the tabernacle veil or DOOR.

where they fellowship with their brothers in the lord...remember the shewbread.

the entire passage is a conclusion to Gods children to strive to be able to be anointed and enter into the light.

by the way..to be able to enter into the tabernacle..one must be proven by trial.
and the conclusion of the trial...Jesus is Lord.

do you ever ask yourself..are gentiles meant to read these messages spoken to jews..gentiles are of the new testament..the gospels are a part of the old testament.
because if one doesnt understand what the jews knew about their religious cermonies..you will not see what is being expressed. or what the statements are referencing to.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by John Wells:
Dallas,

Regarding 1 Cor 15:22, here is a quote from Dr. John MacArthur: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />all … all. The two “alls” are alike only in the sense that they both apply to descendants. The second “all” applies only to believers (see Gal. 3:26, 29; 4:7; Eph. 3:6; cf. Acts 20:32; Titus 3:7) and does not imply universalism (the salvation of everyone without faith). Countless other passages clearly teach the eternal punishment of the unbelieving (e.g., Matt. 5:29; 10:28; 25:41, 46; Luke 16:23; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:15).

Here again, universalists cling to a few "all" passages to create a heretic rendering of the gospel. Compare/balance your few "all" passages with the hundreds of passages promising everlasting punishment for those who die rejecting God's grace. Then do a study on the use of "all" in the Bible and see how unreliable it is to assign universal inclusivity to its use. </font>[/QUOTE]I wasn't attempting to justify the universalist position. But to show that the phrase 'made alive' is referring to the resurrection. It is not necessarily speaking toward salvation. In fact, I take this to mean the truth of the resurrection, both of the just and unjust is only so true, because first Christ was raised up, which the best my memory serves is the meaning of the phrase.

This taken then would mean that even the unjust shall partake of the resurrection, but this to condemnation in the Lake of Fire. This was my point in the above questioned post.

I agree with you concerning "all." But not necessarily because of John MacArthur.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by John Wells:
1)But what about the ones who die without "Confessing Christ Jesus as Savior?" I've heard some universalists say that after a period of torment in hell, all will confess Jesus as Savior, and will escape hell to heaven.

2)The correct answer to the blank is:

A) "all" will believe
B) "the world" will believe
C) whoever believes

1) Yes that is what I believe. If you notice I do not refer to it as a doctrine but as the hope of universal reconciliation.

2) The correct answer is C.