Basics of Bible Interpretation

[Yeshua1]

You say that my FP doctrine of Christs Parousia does not constitute a legitimate coming of Christ because He did not come physically and visibly. Correct?

According to this logic, then, neither did Christ exist before the Incarnation, seeing He was at that time both invisible and spiritual.

Jesus is right now in dame physically glorified body, and still has those nail scars in his hands!

 

[Yeshua1]

Really?? You've gone off the rails. The doctrine of the preincarnate existence of Christ as one of the trinity, one who occasionally manifested Himself in preincarnate appearances, is well established in theology.

Furthermore, you are completely mistaking what I teach and have carefully delineated on the BB.
1. Christ always existed, but became human in the incarnation.
2. He remains completely human in a resurrected, perfect body.
3. To say that Christ only came spiritually and not physically in AD 70 is to separate the physical body of Christ and His spirit, something that is impossible. "The body without the spirit is dead" (James 2:26).
4. But I do not say that Christ came physically in AD 70--in fact, no one does! I say He did not come at all then, whether "spiritually" (impossible) or physically.
5. In fact, there is no evidence in church history that anyone--anyone--who was a believer in Christ in AD 70 taught that Christ came back to earth then.
6. The premillennial doctrine is not that He will ever come "spiritually," but that He will come physically someday, just as in Acts 1:11.

You see, full preterism does violence not only to eschatology, but Christology.

I thionk he even denies that Jesus still has His physical glorified form!

 

[Yeshua1]

I should not even bother to answer this innuendo but, yes. I majored in Bible.

Any other aspersions?

Are you saying that the lord would not want us to be diligent in understanding the original languages of the Bible if called to preach/trach/ be a scholar then?

 

[Yeshua1]

THe repeated point is "coming on the clouds of heaven" God/Jesus is truly present veiled by clouds & seen/understood to be present by the prophesied signs of his presence. That happened repeatedly in the Old Covenant & Jesus clearly said it would happen at the destruction.

When the second coming occurs, all in christ have a physically glorofied resurrection, has never happened yet!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The repeated point is "coming on the clouds of heaven" God/Jesus is truly present veiled by clouds & seen/understood to be present by the prophesied signs of his presence. That happened repeatedly in the Old Covenant & Jesus clearly said it would happen at the destruction.

That the Lord Jesus is not currently visible from earth is a point on which we can surely agree. But 'Behold, He is coming with the clouds and every eye will see Him' rather suggests to me that His return to earth will be visible.

The explanation is found very clearly in Acts 1:9-11. 'Now when they had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'

Now it is pretty clear that the apostles saw Lord Jesus the Lord Jesus rise from the earth, since it happened 'while they watched.' At some point in His ascent, He was obscured by a cloud, but they continued to 'look' at the spot where they had last seen Him. He had been visible, but then He was no longer visible because of the cloud.
Now the Jesus who will return will be the 'same Jesus;' He left in a 'flesh and bones' body (Luke 24:39); He will return in the same body. He left visibly; He will return visibly 'in like manner.' Clouds closed over Him to hide Him; clouds will part to reveal Him. Simples.

Acts 1:11 seems to me to drive a coach and horses through all forms of Preterism, especially Hyper-preterism. It is not the only text that does so, but it is perhaps the clearest.

 

[Yeshua1]

That the Lord Jesus is not currently visible from earth is a point on which we can surely agree. But 'Behold, He is coming with the clouds and every eye will see Him' rather suggests to me that His return to earth will be visible.

The explanation is found very clearly in Acts 1:9-11. 'Now when they had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'

Now it is pretty clear that the apostles saw Lord Jesus the Lord Jesus rise from the earth, since it happened 'while they watched.' At some point in His ascent, He was obscured by a cloud, but they continued to 'look' at the spot where they had last seen Him. He had been visible, but then He was no longer visible because of the cloud.
Now the Jesus who will return will be the 'same Jesus;' He left in a 'flesh and bones' body (Luke 24:39); He will return in the same body. He left visibly; He will return visibly 'in like manner.' Clouds closed over Him to hide Him; clouds will part to reveal Him. Simples.

Acts 1:11 seems to me to drive a coach and horses through all forms of Preterism, especially Hyper-preterism. It is not the only text that does so, but it is perhaps the clearest.

preterists have to have Jesus exchange that physical glorified body back to a spiritual one, so right there shows they are quite wrong in regards to His second coming event. They deny a physical resurrection of all in christ, so would be seen as heretics on this doctrtine!

 

[John of Japan]

I thionk he even denies that Jesus still has His physical glorified form!

Well, ask him. But he'll probably obfuscate.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, ask him. But he'll probably obfuscate.

I know that he denies that Jesus still has the nail wounds in his hands, and he now has a spiritual body per him!

 

[Covenanter]

2 Peter 1:19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.​

What good old A. T. missed is that v. 21 starts with gar, which is used when an explanation or reason is needed ("because"). So v. 21 is an explanation of the statement in v. 20 that the Bible must not be interpreted with a "private interpretation." That full preterism (and most of partial preterism) is not exegesis but eisegesis is apparent to all who are not already fooled.

Surely what Peter is saying is the the OC prophets were inspired by God through the Holy Spirit, & therefore not their own prophetic messages.opinions/interpretations of the events. He is not talking about the interpretation of prophecy in the sense being discussed, but the inspired word of prophecy.

This is the sort of private interpretation that must be condemned -

Jer. 23: 36 But you must not mention “a message from the Lord” again, because each one’s word becomes their own message. So you distort the words of the living God, the Lord Almighty, our God. 37 This is what you keep saying to a prophet: “What is the Lord’s answer to you?” or “What has the Lordspoken?” 38 Although you claim, “This is a message from the Lord,” this is what the Lord says: you used the words, “This is a message from the Lord,” even though I told you that you must not claim, “This is a message from the Lord.” 39 Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your ancestors. 40 I will bring on you everlasting disgrace – everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.’​

That the Lord Jesus is not currently visible from earth is a point on which we can surely agree. But 'Behold, He is coming with the clouds and every eye will see Him' rather suggests to me that His return to earth will be visible.

The explanation is found very clearly in Acts 1:9-11. 'Now when they had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.'

Now it is pretty clear that the apostles saw Lord Jesus the Lord Jesus rise from the earth, since it happened 'while they watched.' At some point in His ascent, He was obscured by a cloud, but they continued to 'look' at the spot where they had last seen Him. He had been visible, but then He was no longer visible because of the cloud.
Now the Jesus who will return will be the 'same Jesus;' He left in a 'flesh and bones' body (Luke 24:39); He will return in the same body. He left visibly; He will return visibly 'in like manner.' Clouds closed over Him to hide Him; clouds will part to reveal Him. Simples.

Acts 1:11 seems to me to drive a coach and horses through all forms of Preterism, especially Hyper-preterism. It is not the only text that does so, but it is perhaps the clearest.

The "flesh & bones body" was rather different after Jesus' resurrection - he could eat & drink, & be touched, yet appear & disappear in a locked room, and he is with his people everywhere on earth. Hardly a finite, physical body. And if "every eye on earth can see him" physically, that is rather different from the resurrection body see by the witnesses.

I'm not making any assertion about his glorified body, not about how we can all enjoy fellowship with him at the same time, etc. It's all too wonderful, & beyond my understanding. However, his coming veiled by clouds before "this generation" passed was clearly prophesied, & therefore took place. You might like to refer to his coming in the clouds in Daniel 7 which his enemies rejected as blasphemy -

13 ‘In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.​

In which direction was he coming?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

​

The "flesh & bones body" was rather different after Jesus' resurrection - he could eat & drink, & be touched, yet appear & disappear in a locked room, and he is with his people everywhere on earth. Hardly a finite, physical body. And if "every eye on earth can see him" physically, that is rather different from the resurrection body see by the witnesses.

Our Lord's body was a 'resurrection body,' but it was still 'flesh and bones,' and that is the body in which He will return according to Acts 1:11. Witnesses saw Him go up to heaven; witnesses will see Him return. How exactly 'every eye will see Him' I don't know. Perhaps it will be on CNN.

I'm not making any assertion about his glorified body, not about how we can all enjoy fellowship with him at the same time, etc. It's all too wonderful, & beyond my understanding. However, his coming veiled by clouds before "this generation" passed was clearly prophesied, & therefore took place. You might like to refer to his coming in the clouds in Daniel 7 which his enemies rejected as blasphemy -
13 ‘In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
In which direction was he coming?

This is the other end of His journey after His ascension. It is at this point that the Father said to Him, "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool' (Psalm 110:1; c.f. Mark 16:19). All nations and peoples of every language are worshipping Him right now. Not every single person, but peoples of every nation and language.

But this is beside the point. The fact is that Acts 1:11 refutes Preterism.

 

[Yeshua1]

2 Peter 1:19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.​

Surely what Peter is saying is the the OC prophets were inspired by God through the Holy Spirit, & therefore not their own prophetic messages.opinions/interpretations of the events. He is not talking about the interpretation of prophecy in the sense being discussed, but the inspired word of prophecy.

This is the sort of private interpretation that must be condemned -

Jer. 23: 36 But you must not mention “a message from the Lord” again, because each one’s word becomes their own message. So you distort the words of the living God, the Lord Almighty, our God. 37 This is what you keep saying to a prophet: “What is the Lord’s answer to you?” or “What has the Lordspoken?” 38 Although you claim, “This is a message from the Lord,” this is what the Lord says: you used the words, “This is a message from the Lord,” even though I told you that you must not claim, “This is a message from the Lord.” 39 Therefore, I will surely forget you and cast you out of my presence along with the city I gave to you and your ancestors. 40 I will bring on you everlasting disgrace – everlasting shame that will not be forgotten.’​

The "flesh & bones body" was rather different after Jesus' resurrection - he could eat & drink, & be touched, yet appear & disappear in a locked room, and he is with his people everywhere on earth. Hardly a finite, physical body. And if "every eye on earth can see him" physically, that is rather different from the resurrection body see by the witnesses.

I'm not making any assertion about his glorified body, not about how we can all enjoy fellowship with him at the same time, etc. It's all too wonderful, & beyond my understanding. However, his coming veiled by clouds before "this generation" passed was clearly prophesied, & therefore took place. You might like to refer to his coming in the clouds in Daniel 7 which his enemies rejected as blasphemy -

13 ‘In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.​

In which direction was he coming?

the body of Jesus was the very same one that he diied in, as that same body was physically raised up and glorified!

 

[Yeshua1]

​

Our Lord's body was a 'resurrection body,' but it was still 'flesh and bones,' and that is the body in which He will return according to Acts 1:11. Witnesses saw Him go up to heaven; witnesses will see Him return. How exactly 'every eye will see Him' I don't know. Perhaps it will be on CNN.

This is the other end of His journey after His ascension. It is at this point that the Father said to Him, "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies Your footstool' (Psalm 110:1; c.f. Mark 16:19). All nations and peoples of every language are worshipping Him right now. Not every single person, but peoples of every nation and language.

But this is beside the point. The fact is that Acts 1:11 refutes Preterism.

As does the fact of the Physical bodily resurrection of the body that has never happened yet in history!

 

[th1bill]

What do you consider the most basic "rules" of Bible interpretation?

.
My rule in one line will keep you on track though there might be more others feel equally as important; No scripture, no collection of scripture nor can any passage of scripture can ever be fully or correc6ly understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it/them.

You see, Jesus, Paul, James, John and all the other Christiansin first century taught it from the Old Testament. And that, traceable with any reliable Chain Referenced Bible will return the reader to the Old Testament, the root of the teaching, illustrating this point.

Many Net Freaks freak out when they read that point but there are many appropriate Categories the Holy Word of YHWH and the Son, His Only Begotten.

 

[th1bill]

This speaks to the fact that there are various levels of context. You are speaking of the wide context of all of the Bible here. So, one should interpret according to the immediate context (the verses before and after), the chapter context, the context of the book, the context of the Old or New Testament, and the context of the whole Bible.

John of Japan, I'll bet you are a fun person hang with and you got that answered before I read the OP. While I do not fess up often, my seventy-three years, have had a few buildings that needed climbing, rivers to swim and most of allJohn of Japan, I'll bet you are a fun person hang with and you got that answered before I read the OP. While my time is ending before much longer, you cannot imagine my joy John of Japan, I'll bet you are a fun person hang with and you got that answered before I read the OP. While I am often left standing for, exactly, it is refreshing when I find one more saint called to this ministry. There are so very many here and playing religion, inside the Church today.

Willis (Bill) Taylor, Sr
Killer Spade 806 CE
1968-1969

 

[John of Japan]

John of Japan, I'll bet you are a fun person hang with and you got that answered before I read the OP. While I do not fess up often, my seventy-three years, have had a few buildings that needed climbing, rivers to swim and most of allJohn of Japan, I'll bet you are a fun person hang with and you got that answered before I read the OP. While my time is ending before much longer, you cannot imagine my joy John of Japan, I'll bet you are a fun person hang with and you got that answered before I read the OP. While I am often left standing for, exactly, it is refreshing when I find one more saint called to this ministry. There are so very many here and playing religion, inside the Church today.

Willis (Bill) Taylor, Sr
Killer Spade 806 CE
1968-1969

Thanks for the nice comments, Bill. The churches certainly need revival, and I may do a thread on that soon.