Battling Cultural Christianity

[Earth Wind and Fire]

At our local church we try. We have social events in which the neighborhood is invited.

Yes, The LORD has saved some using these efforts. Needless to say there is/was culture shock for them and a little for us.



We have a young and aggressive pastor (a millennial) who has almost doubled our local church attendance.
I love to hear him preach. He is sound in the faith and has a missionary attitude for the local community.

He knows enough to slowly remove the relics of the past generations - they were good for us but now we need to move over in the pew to make room for this present generation.

So what does this young whipper snapper exactly doing? And please don’t tell me he provides a great sermon with kicking music.
And if your suggesting pushing the elderly out...

Personally I don’t think there is anyone a young and spoiled generation who has a clue... everyone has to put transformation first.

 

[HankD]

So what does this young whipper snapper exactly doing? And please don’t tell me he provides a great sermon with kicking music.

He provides a great sermon with kicking music

And if your suggesting pushing the elderly out...

Not going to even address this {hmm, I just did.).

Personally I don’t think there is anyone a young and spoiled generation who has a clue... everyone has to put transformation first.

Its up to God not the "whipper snapper".

 

[BroOldTimer]

I disagree with you... it is not the person that has grown cold... it is the church, the assembly that has gone cold. There is no love in it anymore. Now people will believe in love... they will believe in life given and received.

Of course you have read John 20:27
These assemblies today are afraid to touch the flesh of God, even the flesh of one another and understand what God is calling us into. Therefore why assemble? Are you answering the deep deep questions that consern people? Really, no you are not. It is the spirit inside that is answering those questions. You the church follow it up with touching the flesh and putting it together. The world is not asking for weak church services, tired ideas and theologies but it will believe love, and life given and received... so go out there and touch the flesh, you might be supprised what you find.

I respect your opinion, but disagree. However, I would challenge you with the fact that the assembly has no power without spirit filled Christians in the midst. Christians that bear the spiritual fruits. Jesus comes on the scene when those folks are gathered. We have a consumeristic attitude towards worship. EVERY Christian should be working in the body according to their spiritual gift. If the Christian grows cold then the fruits will not be there; thus, when we remove the binds and blinds from our hearts and eyes love for God and love for their neighbor will be present.

The spirit must be at work or it is all in vain. What is your definition of a weak service?

 

[BroOldTimer]

So what does this young whipper snapper exactly doing? And please don’t tell me he provides a great sermon with kicking music.
And if your suggesting pushing the elderly out...

Personally I don’t think there is anyone a young and spoiled generation who has a clue... everyone has to put transformation first.

The spiritual birth is a must. If the new man has not been born then you are doing exactly what a previous poster gave... dressing a goat up and calling it a Christian.

The posture of the heart is the real question. Is it for the glory of man or the glory of Almighty God? I think you'll find people with both heart postures in the older and younger generation. I'm part of that younger generation and there is a lot that I do not know and need to work on.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He provides a great sermon with kicking music
Not going to even address this {hmm, I just did.).

Its up to God not the "whipper snapper".

Yes so how do you see God working in the lives of the congregants? Is it transformative? Do they now go out to others as well as their own communities? Is there real love and gentleness shown to everyone? These are some of the earmarks of a true transformed church.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I respect your opinion, but disagree. However, I would challenge you with the fact that the assembly has no power without spirit filled Christians in the midst. Christians that bear the spiritual fruits. Jesus comes on the scene when those folks are gathered. We have a consumeristic attitude towards worship. EVERY Christian should be working in the body according to their spiritual gift. If the Christian grows cold then the fruits will not be there; thus, when we remove the binds and blinds from our hearts and eyes love for God and love for their neighbor will be present.

The spirit must be at work or it is all in vain. What is your definition of a weak service?

My definition is beginning to end the lazy church service of churches I see today.... pattern song song prayer song offering song sermon song song close. People coming to services as a gathering system. A place to go on Sunday...a place to go to fill up the day. It’s almost funereal... ie people preparing for the next world rather than teaching people how to meet God in this world.

Really, What word of hope do we have to offer to the millions of workers who see no meaning in there life or women who bear children and, day after day, say, what is the meaning of this life?

For most of the people I speak with the question is not, is there life on this other side of death? It is rather, is there life on this side of death. So I am concluding, the world doesn’t need your Doctrines, your dogmas, your sermons, your music,your gathering place churches and so it will , more and more, reject that style of church. But listen to me on this, it will believe in love. It will accept life that is given and received , in love.

 

[HankD]

I respect your opinion, but disagree. However, I would challenge you with the fact that the assembly has no power without spirit filled Christians in the midst. Christians that bear the spiritual fruits. Jesus comes on the scene when those folks are gathered. We have a consumeristic attitude towards worship. EVERY Christian should be working in the body according to their spiritual gift. If the Christian grows cold then the fruits will not be there; thus, when we remove the binds and blinds from our hearts and eyes love for God and love for their neighbor will be present.

The spirit must be at work or it is all in vain. What is your definition of a weak service?

Mine would be if the word of God was compromised with the current antichrist agendae.
The PC venues of this world.

e.g. What gender am I?

I won't be crass, so I'll sanitize the answer. Look and see the equipment that the LORD gave me at birth.

...male and female He created them, not - I dunno and I dunno.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The main rubric most people use to decide whether a person is a cultural Christian is their connection to their church. While I think this rubric has certainly got its uses, the problem of cultural Christianity is deeper and more basic. I will argue in my next post.

The church commitment rubric generally has five levels to it, although I have heard people argue as few as two levels:

1. The senior pastor and the elders
2. People who act in some service capacity in the church
3. People who go to church on Sunday as well as various groups and activities
4. People who go to church on Sunday and that is all
5. People who don't go to church

Now I have heard it argued by a pastor that there are really just two levels, the attender and the non-attender. The non-attender are cultural Christians if they identify as Christians. Attenders are not cultural Christians according to this pastor.

I get these levels form small group discussions, internet discussions, and Christian leaders. From the way I hear or read it, most people only really consider people at levels 1 or 2 to be doing the works of ministry and thus fulfilling their potential. The great problem is getting people to church, then to small group, then to service. It's a kind of challenge facing every church.

Now, biblicaly speaking we are to spend time with the Body of Christ. More to the point it tells us to make a contribution to our church. It asks some to make the sacrifice to be elders (senior pastor level people in the eyes of the congregation). So, these people seem to be on to something.

Both of these lessons I now understand in the last few weeks, after quitting church for several months. To live up to these standards myself, I plan to go through the new member class and get plugged in as someone who does some basic service to the church I'm at. I have traditionally not done service activities but did lots of small groups but this made me a church consumer, and I see the error in this way now.

However, this five step rubric is a helpful guide to predicting whether you are doing well on the real issue, it seems to me. I have found in two years as a Christian, just a child still, but one driven to pain by the actions of many people claiming to be Christians, by just looking around, that the real question is: Do people actually obey Jesus and make every effort, every day to apply the Word of God into their life, or not? I will go into that in my next post as this one is long and I switching topics.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

The real problem it seems to me, at this point in time two years into the faith after revival, is that people tend to have an awfully low expectation of how they should act as Christians.

Works, both external and internal, are the vernacular of sanctification in the every day. However, I find so many, many Christians prioritize obeying Jesus as not the number one, pressing concern. In fact, it is usually an afterthought to many Christians I meet on the streets of Orlando.

I have grown to have very high expectation of myself and my behavior as an ambassador of Christ. Something, I have to work at constantly, every day, and still improve at. Yet, I have become more and more disheartened that most Christians I meet just want to live a cushy and luxurious life in America, with little thought to what Jesus wants them to do.

I can ask a few questions to decide whether someone is lukewarm or not given my own life and revival testimony:

1. As you read the Word of God, do you apply every single verse over time, those relevant to you?
2. Are you committed to obeying Jesus and His Word with everything you have as your first priority, every day?

I know this because when I began to try and do this in my own life, I started a wild series of events that have matured me and improved and disciplined me in a way that it would be impossible to understand I really was that lost-in-sin guy named Steve two years ago. Even this last escapade back into and then out of Charismaticism, has taught me life changing lessons and matured me in a way that that make that experience almost impossible to repeat.

Only in the daily struggle of fighting sin in spiritual warfare (an uncommon topic that is left on the backburner far too often) and of working hard to do the right thing (I have not heard a sermon on this in a long time), do I feel any sense of real closeness to a God Who gives me the strength to overcome. A God I am willing to suffer for every, single day in ways small and large to live according to how Jesus would want me to. Even in a life with plenty of pain and hopelessness because of my many medical issues.

 

[HankD]

Yes so how do you see God working in the lives of the congregants? Is it transformative? Do they now go out to others as well as their own communities? Is there real love and gentleness shown to everyone? These are some of the earmarks of a true transformed church.

Lives have been remarkably changed.

Crashes along the way - yes.
Those who have come in the front door and left by the back door (so to speak) - yes,

But those added to the Church of the Firstborn - Yes!

KJV 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Are changed root - metamorphoo.

I believe the NIV catches much of the nuance of this passage:

NIV 2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

As we behold His glory in the word of God we gradually take on His persona reflecting His glory.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

My definition is beginning to end the lazy church service of churches I see today.... pattern song song prayer song offering song sermon song song close. People coming to services as a gathering system. A place to go on Sunday...a place to go to fill up the day. It’s almost funereal... ie people preparing for the next world rather than teaching people how to meet God in this world.

Really, What word of hope do we have to offer to the millions of workers who see no meaning in there life or women who bear children and, day after day, say, what is the meaning of this life?

For most of the people I speak with the question is not, is there life on this other side of death? It is rather, is there life on this side of death. So I am concluding, the world doesn’t need your Doctrines, your dogmas, your sermons, your music,your gathering place churches and so it will , more and more, reject that style of church. But listen to me on this, it will believe in love. It will accept life that is given and received , in love.

I think you have some very valid points, yet it seems to me that maybe these people you are talking to are asking the wrong question in a way.

I know this because I, as an atheist, kept asking if their was life and hope on this side of death. I became a Christian when I discovered that my faith did bring life and hope, but I quickly lapsed into lukewarm faith, not because I lacked joy, happiness, and much more as a Christian, but because I expected life as a Christian to be always more pleasurable than life as an atheist.

When push came to shove I rebelled against God in the easiest way I could: I said, well LORD, You can have so much of my energy all the time, because I would have to work hard and suffer to give you 100% every day. The problem I faced was an easy one to understand now, I needed, over the course of years, to learn perseverance. Yet learning perseverance for a couch potato American has been hard these last two years, and I still have a ways to go it feels.

That said, how this ties back is easy. In a world where doing the right thing may cost you more and more in American society; in a world where living for Jesus is hard, painful, and requires learning perseverance; We must be careful to expect to get something positive in this world from our faith. What of those who have made the fool's bargain like Paul and the apostles? Those that are persecuted for their faith systematically their whole life? I'm not saying our faith lacks perks: Its gives peace, happiness, hope, understanding, love, and more. What I am saying is that our faith is a kind of fool's wager to the world and we must never forget that.

1 Corinthians 15:19:

If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think you have some very valid points, yet it seems to me that maybe these people you are talking to are asking the wrong question in a way.

I know this because I, as an atheist, kept asking if their was life and hope on this side of death. I became a Christian when I discovered that my faith did bring life and hope, but I quickly lapsed into lukewarm faith, not because I lacked joy, happiness, and much more as a Christian, but because I expected life as a Christian to be always more pleasurable than life as an atheist.

When push came to shove I rebelled against God in the easiest way I could: I said, well LORD, You can have so much of my energy all the time, because I would have to work hard and suffer to give you 100% every day. The problem I faced was an easy one to understand now, I needed, over the course of years, to learn perseverance. Yet learning perseverance for a couch potato American has been hard these last two years, and I still have a ways to go it feels.

That said, how this ties back is easy. In a world where doing the right thing may cost you more and more in American society; in a world where living for Jesus is hard, painful, and requires learning perseverance; We must be careful to expect to get something positive in this world from our faith. What of those who have made the fool's bargain like Paul and the apostles? Those that are persecuted for their faith systematically their whole life? I'm not saying our faith lacks perks: Its gives peace, happiness, hope, understanding, love, and more. What I am saying is that our faith is a kind of fool's wager to the world and we must never forget that.

1 Corinthians 15:19:

If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Congratulations Steve, you have found a way to completely miss the point. Try going back to the op and addressing the stated concern... ie how to bring people back into the church. So how would you do it.... perhaps by more sermonizing, perhaps more attention to doctrine cause that surely will draw them in, or let’s have a lunch, surely then. No no no, if we can just introduce a Christian rock band they will come right. We will do everything short of looking deep into the person and seeing the Christ within. And why would that be? Perhaps we are to preoccupied, to afraid that if we did we would be drawn into another’s life and that’s not where we want to go. Let me ask you, when you read the Good Samaritan parable, where is the Christ symbol? I had always assumed that the Good Sam was really Christ. But from another point of view perhaps it’s the guy laying on the side of the road. That poor unfortunate is the guy doing all the converting. He is the one who forces a whole new agenda. You get it don’t you. This poor man is the one who forces you to either action or inaction. Christ laying broken by the side of the road, forcing a decision out of you. What a trap! Now do we reach out, touch the wounds , what a delema, See I would have to empty too much of myself and make space for the not me, the other... maybe even the enemy, no that’s too much.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Congratulations Steve, you have found a way to completely miss the point. Try going back to the op and addressing the stated concern... ie how to bring people back into the church. So how would you do it.... perhaps by more sermonizing, perhaps more attention to doctrine cause that surely will draw them in, or let’s have a lunch, surely then. No no no, if we can just introduce a Christian rock band they will come right. We will do everything short of looking deep into the person and seeing the Christ within. And why would that be? Perhaps we are to preoccupied, to afraid that if we did we would be drawn into another’s life and that’s not where we want to go. Let me ask you, when you read the Good Samaritan parable, where is the Christ symbol? I had always assumed that the Good Sam was really Christ. But from another point of view perhaps it’s the guy laying on the side of the road. That poor unfortunate is the guy doing all the converting. He is the one who forces a whole new agenda. You get it don’t you. This poor man is the one who forces you to either action or inaction. Christ laying broken by the side of the road, forcing a decision out of you. What a trap! Now do we reach out, touch the wounds , what a delema, See I would have to empty too much of myself and make space for the not me, the other... maybe even the enemy, no that’s too much.

Very true, I missed the point of the OP. I should go make a new thread with my posts. As to the Original point of the thread. I honestly wrestle with what to do for all those I meet in Orlando who claim Christianity, but don't have much priority for their faith. I meet a lot of them, because I use disabled transportation services that give me a new audience all the time. I see now, I should have looked more closely at myself and my own response before posting, since I am also quite confused on what to do for the people being discussed.

 

[tyndale1946]

Have you ever read or heard George Whitefield’s sermon, “ Method of Grace?”

Thanks for that EWF... I've heard preaching like that all my life but I'm pretty sure it would be pretty heavy for some on here... No doubt about it I'm a great sinner, who has a greater Savior Jesus Christ... Brother Glen

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

FYI ... Glen, that is the sermon that God used to convict me. When you here the name George Whitefield you can bottom line know it’s direct from the Holy Spirit

 

[tyndale1946]

FYI ... Glen, that is the sermon that God used to convict me. When you here the name George Whitefield you can bottom line know it’s direct from the Holy Spirit

One thing about that sermon Steve, if that sermon really sets in your heart and soul you have no place to hide... Like Whitefield says... Peace!... The only peace is fully in Jesus Christ... I put it in my favorites, its worth a second read... Brother Glen

 

[JonShaff]

I throw tracts into the garbage

As a Christian, you like to throw away material containing the Word of God? (assuming its contents are biblical)

 

[JonShaff]

I agree. For so long I have been concerned with the lack of doctrine (shallow doctrine), or doctrine taught as tradition, in our churches. But perhaps this is merely a symptom. Perhaps the problem is a lack of love.

Winner...Lack of Love is the root cause of unhealthy churches. Love for the Savior, Love for His People. AND LOVE is the mark of a healthy Church. Just one mark, not 9

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Very true, I missed the point of the OP. I should go make a new thread with my posts. As to the Original point of the thread. I honestly wrestle with what to do for all those I meet in Orlando who claim Christianity, but don't have much priority for their faith. I meet a lot of them, because I use disabled transportation services that give me a new audience all the time. I see now, I should have looked more closely at myself and my own response before posting, since I am also quite confused on what to do for the people being discussed.

Love them! Look for the Christ inside them, respect them

As a Christian, you like to throw away material containing the Word of God? (assuming its contents are biblical)

Yes

 

[FollowTheWay]

My brother pastored a small Baptist church in a poor community (50-100 on Sunday morning). He was having difficulty reaching the neighborhood and making ends meet. he asked a long-time neighbor of ours who was a pastor and a professor at the SBS what could he do to really be effective. Our neighbor's answer was show the people you love them.