BBF - Pro or Con?

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
On another thread on seeking pastors, the BBFI was suggested as possible source. I have had only very poor experiences with the classic BBF "mentality" here in Wyoming.

We've seen strong pastor-dictator, oriented toward the KJVo sect, shallow character, legalism/rules and culture of 1950 Texas brought into 2004 Wyoming - and highly independent, "lone ranger" attitude.

Also the "good old boy" network (based around BBC Springfield, a school bilaterally supported) with speakers, missionaries, pastors, etc that are self-perpetuating.

So these churches do their thing, quit fellowship and support of camps, etc, and the heritage of small inter-dependent churches in our state are slowly eroded.

Pretty negative, eh? That's my experience. Would like to hear YOUR views - positive or negative.

Thanks.

Dr. Bob, I would say that your assessment is fairly correct. I have a brother-in-law who is/was BBF, and he and my sister show these same characteristics to this day. My brother-in-law says that he can't find a "good church" in the area he's in, though there are several, and thus, wants to start one because he doesn't want to be under the leadership of anyone, which I have found to be most typical of many in the BBF. They all want to be the 'head honcho'. He did start a church in Arizona, but when faced with opposition became overly dictatorial, dividing my family by keeping us from talking to our mother because we didn't agree with "his approach". Too bad his answer wasn't the "scriptural approach". I've found that many of them twist the Word to fit their own definition, and withdrew fellowship with them years ago, at least the ones who displayed such traits. There are some good people from the BBF.

AJL

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As a native Californian who has needs a passport and at least one visa to go east of Reno, I can only second Dr. Bob's observations. But, then I was a stranger in a strange land when I went to school in Wisconsin. From my personal observations, his remark of the BBF's bringing "1950's Texas into 2004 Wyoming" is not too far off the mark. I perceive (or mayhap mis-perceive) the BBF (and men in their sector of the Baptist galaxy) seek to replicate a golden age.

 

[David Singleton]

As a former BBFI missionary I have had first hand experience with the BBFI, not only with the missions programme, but with a number of the Pastors as well. Many of the Pastors I worked with were of a good heart, loved the Lord and sought to always do the right thing in all circumstances.

Like with any organization there are those who are more interested in power, legalism, their golf game and how much they spent for their suit.
Their is a perpondency toward legalism, crucifying anyone who even mildly disagrees with them, or questions the why in the methodology of the Fellowship.

The Good and the Bad can be found in the ranks of the BBFI, and even the ugly liars and thieves can be found. Missionaries looking for a clearing house would do well to look anywhere and everywhere before looking to BBFI.

Call me bitter or biased if you will, and your welcome to disagree, attend a few meetings and see for yourself, the BBFI is a breeding ground for legalist and the self righteous. See it for yourself join and be a part for a year. That good ol boy network is very real and if they dont like you they'll do everything in their power to destroy you.

 

[Shiloh]

The BBF in Maine is strong. However there is not much personal separation in most the local BBF churches concerning anything! As far as ecclesiastical separation, they mostly use their own people. They are real strong on Baptist doctrine to the point of being accused of being briders. They do have a very strong leader at Baptist Bible East in Boston by the name of Harry Boils (sp). Although I am not part of BBF I have heard this man speak a few times and he is my kind of preacher! I had been part of a fellowship in VA. many years ago that were former BBF men. This was the best fellowship I have ever been involved with bar none.

 

[sovgrace79]

I went to Boston Baptist College, which is their school on the East Coast. I earned an A.S. in Biblical Studies, and a B.S. in Biblical Studies, Pastoral Emphasis. My experiences there were great, and I appreciate the efforts they made to get nationally accredited and get degree granting status in the state of MA. I'm now able to do graduate work thanks to their efforts.

While I was there, it was apparent that a shift was happening (by listening to the chapel preaching), that things were moving away from the legalistic tendencies, and towards more of a Purpose Driven style of ministry. I did sense a dictatorial attitude in some of the chapel speakers.

I'm now fellowshipping with churches and pastors in the NRBFC (Northeast Regular Baptist Fellowship of Churches). The reason I made the switch is for a couple major reasons:

1) I found it very hard to find churches with pastors in the BBF (they mention it is a fellowship of Pastors, not churches) that did expositional preaching. Mostly I heard topical sermons at those churches. Once I heard expositional preaching, I decided I did not want to go to a church whose pastor preaches topical sermons all the time.

2) I became convicted of the Doctrines of Grace while at school. There are not too many (if any) 5-point guys in the BBF. The NRBFC is very much Doctrines of Grace, so I find that I fit in better there.

I still have many friends in the BBF, and the rest of my family goes to a church affiliated with them. As has been already said, there are good guys and bad in the fellowship. I would think that it would matter most the type of people that are local. We have an informal pastors fellowship at our church every month for NRBFC guys and other IFB pastors, and that seems to mean alot more to those who attend then being part of a national fellowship.

One last thing: Shiloh, I had my two homiletics courses with Dr. Boyle. He is a great preacher. I can remember many chapels where he preached and gave us lots of things to think about in only 10 minutes.

All this being said, I would recommend Boston Baptist for someone who wanted to stay in New England.

 

[shannonL]

I grew up a SBC boy. Went to school at Piedmont Bible College which has a litte GARBC flavor to it though it is independent. I'm raising support with Central Missionary Clearinghouse to go to Spain.
My home church where I attend is a wonderful,growing church. My pastor went to BBC. He really is a backer of the BBF. However he is not at all a baptist brider. He was very accepting of our family two years ago even though we came from different baptist backgrounds.
He will readily admit that he is thankful for his education but thinks that BBC is very lacking academically.
I get in all kinds of churches as a missionary on deputation. You will find out that there are all kinds of BBF churches. Alot of the ones that are seemingly successful remind me of the SBC churches that I have been apart of.
I really do think the KJVO branch of BBF is fading.
I know we use the KJV as the text in our church. Our pastor even comments time to time about preservation of Scripture. Which you know what that means coming from a KJVO kind of perspective.
Yet our church did the 40 days of Purpose with the PDL book with all the translations in it.
However we also used the PDL workbook where all the Scripture was put into the KJV for our church. I just thought it was a confusing mess since we did it that way.
I think our pastor is pulling away from that conviction. I would never ask him because he never pushs KJVOism at all he just uses it.
I think the way our pastor is leading is the way you will see alot more BBF preachers going.
Also, one trend I have noticed is the "Family thing". Our pastor is not a dictator but he is a strong leader. His daughter and son in law are the leaders of the youth ministry. I know our former associate left the church because the youth pastor/son in law get treated just a little differently if you know what I mean.
Its like alot of BBF churches try to keep it all in the family to hand down or something.
I'm a member of a BBF church. Our pastor is a real, good man who is doing a great job. Yet for me I would never desire to "run with that crowd" all together.
I have noticed from deputation that BBFers from different parts of the country can be different. I would say there are quite a few BBFers in Ohio who would be considered progressive. Go down to florida and man alot of them down there are rabid BBF, baptist briders. So I don't know I just thought I would throw my two cents in.

 

[shannonL]

Sovgrace 79,

You are so right about the preaching. You will hardly never hear a deep expository message from a BBF man. I hope I don't hurt feelings but I tell ya I 've heard alot of them and they are alot of times topical.
I was in a missions conf. one time and the keynote speaker was some dictator type who preached for 45 min. to an hour. His message was entitled "Turn him loose and let him go".
I can't remember the passage at all. All I can remember is basically he was telling those folk if you'll turn over complete control of your church to the pastor then he can get the job done.
I don't mean this in the normal sense. This big baloon full of hot air told me personally that he didn't have business meetings at his church nor did they have deacons. Him and his wife handled all the finances etc... Now grant it he has a church that is blowing and going running about 1200. But talk about being a dictator that dude was unbelievable.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I think I can speak with some authority here having sat under the ministry of BBFI pastors for around 20 years and now serving as a missionary with the BBF.

Like any other group,we have our problems. We have some oddball preachers and missionaries (some may consider me one). We do some things I really like and some things I don't (and the shoe fits the other foot here also). We have some leaders who just love the limelight and we have some who truly just love Jesus.

Missions is one thing the BBF does well (again, I didn't say PERFECTLY) in my opinion. We raised our support in 18 months and 95% of the churches we have started with are still with us. Although we have not been able to take a full furlough for over 7 years, we have enough good churches that raise our support to keep us here until we can get workers trained to replace us.

 

[shannonL]

I do believe alot of BBFI missionaries get their support faster than the average IFB missionary.
IT may only be 50.00 a church but brother if your a grad from one of their schools and then go out as a BBFI missionary you'll get into BBF churches with alot less hassle than your run of the mill IFB church.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Shhh! Shannon, I DIDN'T graduate from one of the BBF schools and neither did my wife!

There are others amongst us who did not graduate from the anointed institutions. Shocking but true!

 

[John of Japan]

I've noted the same thing as shannonL and Mexdeaf. Whatever else you may say about the BBF, they do missions well. One of the strongest (if not the strongest) groups of Baptist churches in Japan both doctrinally and evangelistically is the Japanese BBF.

 

[shannonL]

I'm going out to Spain with Central Missionary Clearinghouse out of Houston,TX. Brother Jack Bridges who recently passed away started the CMC. He used to be over BBFI missions at one time.
I did not go to a BBF school but our pastor fellowships closely with the BBF. Alot of BBF guys also support CMC. I believe this has opened some doors for me on deputation that otherwise would not have been available.
I've also noticed here recently that ABWE has taken on some appointees from BBC in Springfield.
A few years back that would have been unheard of.
I know our pastor is glad to see this new network of baptist called the International Baptist Network or something like that. It is supposed to loosely affiliate BBF SWF and some GARBC along with World Baptist fellowship with one another. I don't know how it all works out. I know they have a website. The first meeting was at TTU in Chat.TN.

 

[takor]

Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same
Phi 2:2 Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Phi 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Any felloa\ship that does not fulfill the above will continue to break up in peaces like with heartland aND kjvo AND ANY ONTHER ISSUE THAT WILL ARISE FROM TIME TO TIME.

In Christ

 

[Bartimaeus]

The pastor I grew up under was the BBF State Director (or something like that) told me these things:
1. The BBF has a blanket 501 C 3, designation from the IRS for all the churches listed in the BBF National Directory. That blanket designation legally defines it as a denomination and not just a "fellowship".
2. Several years ago the government of South Korea requested all "Independant" missionaries to depart their country. The BBF boys stayed.
These two points were related to me as facts yet I cannot prove the content. If you PM me I will advise you the source.
Thanks -----Bart
.....a free people cannot remain free and be enslaved in sin, God save the USA.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Originally posted by Bartimaeus:
The pastor I grew up under was the BBF State Director (or something like that) told me these things:
1. The BBF has a blanket 501 C 3, designation from the IRS for all the churches listed in the BBF National Directory. That blanket designation legally defines it as a denomination and not just a "fellowship".
2. Several years ago the government of South Korea requested all "Independant" missionaries to depart their country. The BBF boys stayed.
These two points were related to me as facts yet I cannot prove the content. If you PM me I will advise you the source.
Thanks -----Bart
.....a free people cannot remain free and be enslaved in sin, God save the USA.

Bart,

I am looking into this. Give me until Monday.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Bart,

Here's the facts-

1. The BBF has a blanket 501 C 3, designation from the IRS for all the churches listed in the BBF National Directory. That blanket designation legally defines it as a denomination and not just a "fellowship".

The BBF did at one time had a blanket 501 C3 for all churches in the directory. In the early to mid 90's it was changed, and every church was told to get their own. A 501c has nothing to do with anything other than a tax exemption that says you fit under the government approved guidelines. Purpose, not affiliation, is the overall guideline.

2. Several years ago the government of South Korea requested all "Independant" missionaries to depart their country. The BBF boys stayed.

This is due to the fact that the BBF has been in Korea long enough that they have established their own 'Fellowship' there, and the BBF missionaries are recognized for legal purposes through that organization. A current missionary there informs me that there are plenty of independent Baptist missionaries there other than BBF, but they come into the country through the sponsorship of a Presbyterian organization.

One thing that pastors stateside do not understand is that foreign governments do not recognize nor appreciate our doctrinal 'hairsplittings' as to denominations or fellowships.

 

[exscentric]

I was told by IRS couple years ago that no church needs a 501c, because by definition they are a nonprofit.

Something you might want to look into in the future if anyone is planting a church

 

[Dr. Bob]

Appreciate more updates. Thanks folks. Leads to two more questions:

When you say BBFI "schools", are you talking about "real" colleges or ones like Vineyard or Oklahoma, etc?

IF you go out BBFI on mission, are you expected to espouse the "line" (kjvonly, pastor is man-o-gawd and not to be questioned, 1-2-3 easy believism, etc)?

Thanks.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Appreciate more updates. Thanks folks. Leads to two more questions: Appreciate more updates. Thanks folks. Leads to two more questions:

When you say BBFI "schools", are you talking about "real" colleges or ones like Vineyard or Oklahoma, etc?

There are BBFI-owned schools of which there are three- BBC and BBGST in Springfield, MO and BBC East (or Boston Baptist College, I think it is now called) in Boston, MA. There are two 'BBFI-approved' schools (please don't ask me what that means) LA Baptist University in Shreveport, LA and Atlantic Baptist Bible College in VA. I think the main difference is the BBFI supports the owned colleges financially.

Vineyard (OK Baptist College) BBF? You got to be kidding! Heartland Baptist Bible College is the KJVO offshoot of the BBF- not a part of the BBF although there are some men who will flit between both camps.

IF you go out BBFI on mission, are you expected to espouse the "line" (kjvonly, pastor is man-o-gawd and not to be questioned, 1-2-3 easy believism, etc)?

BBFI as a whole is not KJVO or any of the other things you mentioned, although there might be some involved that are. The only 'line' I have to follow is my Bible.

 

[go2church]

Heartland used to Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College in San Dimas, CA; they sold the very valuable property and took the proceeds to Oklahoma and started a KJV only school there. Heartland is so bad that they are not even allowed to grant degrees by the state of Oklahoma, they give our certificates of completion instead. What a joke! It is really a monument to the ego of Sam Davidson, God evidently spoke to him and told him to build a school there. Actually heard him say that at a preachers meeting in Colorado several years ago.