Be courageous Mr President

[Salamander]

My brother has been in Iraq for the last several months. He and our other troops do not go around killing innocent civilians for the fun of it, and I am outraged that you continue to insinuate this. If you want to debate abortion, fine, but kindly stop insulting our brave troops who are out serving their country while we sit in our comfortable homes safe and snug.

thus his right is protected to voice his opinions one in the same, no matter how WRONG his words may be!

I've got a nephew deploying back to Afghanistan soon, his 2nd there and one other to Fellujah, Iraq, where he saved his best friend and fellow soldier's life after they hit a roadside bomb.

Collatoral damage is a fact of war and NONE of our actions as a nation or as an ally in this effort are to be scrutinized in such a fashion as to demoralize our fighting men and women.

The person you responded to with the above might as well move to Iran so he will soon become "happy" with our politics!

 

[donnA]

My nephew spent a year in Iraq, and he didn't kill a single civilian.

 

[PeterM]

Then why do professing Christians support abortion?

I have a couple of responses:

1. Salvation certainly brings a paradigm shift in thinking and perspective, but I would never contend that it happens in the moment. Rather we are instructed to "transformed by the renewing of our minds..." and that effort is one that is a daily work. Those believers who hold on to certain political/moral beliefs need to be catechized in the way of the Lord.

2. The other reality we face is that not all who profess Jesus is a genuine believer. That said, I do not think that what one believes about abortion should be a litmus test to determine one's salvation. I think we have to face the reality that we can be "wrong" and be secure. I hate that not all believers believe what I believe, but that has been a reality since the beginnings of the church.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I have a couple of responses:

1. Salvation certainly brings a paradigm shift in thinking and perspective, but I would never contend that it happens in the moment. Rather we are instructed to "transformed by the renewing of our minds..." and that effort is one that is a daily work. Those believers who hold on to certain political/moral beliefs need to be catechized in the way of the Lord.

2. The other reality we face is that not all who profess Jesus is a genuine believer. That said, I do not think that what one believes about abortion should be a litmus test to determine one's salvation. I think we have to face the reality that we can be "wrong" and be secure. I hate that not all believers believe what I believe, but that has been a reality since the beginnings of the church.

Sorry but I must disagree, once saved a persons perspective changes the moment of salvation, old things pass away and all things become new, you are a new creation in Christ. While you are far from perfect, and must grow in the grace and knowlege of the Lord, the Holy Spirt's indwelling will convict sin. Things I did before I was saved, the language I used, places i went, I never thought about. But once saved when I would do or say or act in a certain manner, the Spirit brought conviction, chastized, corrected or whatever language you want to use for the change in attitude. James, Paul, and john all teach that with salvation a change takes place. That's what jesus meant when he said we must be born again, of the Spirit. We may not respond as we should right away, but a change must occur, otherwise we are just putting new wine in old wineskins. What one believes about murder is avery good litmus test. Scripture teaches that I must love my brother, my neighbor, and my enemy. That covers pretty much everyone. I guess I can murder the rest but everyone I know falls into one of those 3 categories.

 

[PeterM]

Sorry but I must disagree, once saved a persons perspective changes the moment of salvation, old things pass away and all things become new, you are a new creation in Christ. While you are far from perfect, and must grow in the grace and knowlege of the Lord, the Holy Spirt's indwelling will convict sin. Things I did before I was saved, the language I used, places i went, I never thought about. But once saved when I would do or say or act in a certain manner, the Spirit brought conviction, chastized, corrected or whatever language you want to use for the change in attitude. James, Paul, and john all teach that with salvation a change takes place. That's what jesus meant when he said we must be born again, of the Spirit. We may not respond as we should right away, but a change must occur, otherwise we are just putting new wine in old wineskins. What one believes about murder is avery good litmus test. Scripture teaches that I must love my brother, my neighbor, and my enemy. That covers pretty much everyone. I guess I can murder the rest but everyone I know falls into one of those 3 categories.

To the principle to which you began your thoughts... I totally agree that we are in fact "new creations" however we need to be discipled. In the Commission, Jesus instructs us to be "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you". Being "new creations" does not necessarily imply that our moral/political compasses will be perfected, only that we are now subject to the leadership of the HS in our lives.

Paul gives TImothy some instruction as it relates to the Scriptures. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1360203#_ftn1

There is a reason why we need teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness. We are always requiring adjustment in how we think and ultimately live. Abortion, no matter how ugly and repulsive it is, certainly can be something a believer needs to be instructed in.
http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1360203#_ftnref1

 

[LeBuick]

Hard to believe there is any Christian that can defend their vote for abortionists (even tho they claim they are against abortion) after hearing that. I hope all that voted for Obama realize the blood of innocent children is on their hands.

No it's not but go ahead and feel that way... Your choice.

 

[thegospelgeek]

To the principle to which you began your thoughts... I totally agree that we are in fact "new creations" however we need to be discipled. In the Commission, Jesus instructs us to be "teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you". Being "new creations" does not necessarily imply that our moral/political compasses will be perfected, only that we are now subject to the leadership of the HS in our lives.

Paul gives TImothy some instruction as it relates to the Scriptures. 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1360203#_ftn1

There is a reason why we need teaching, reproof, correction and training in righteousness. We are always requiring adjustment in how we think and ultimately live. Abortion, no matter how ugly and repulsive it is, certainly can be something a believer needs to be instructed in.
http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1360203#_ftnref1

Agreed, we must be discipled and have much to learn, but do you not think the Holy Spirit is involved in this process? Before I was saved I could treat people a poorly and not even realize it. Once saved I was convivted by the spirit when I mistreated someone. The discipling teaches me how to respond but the knowlege of the wrong is there.

To apply this to the abortion issue I really think the Spirit would let you know that abortion is wrong IMHO.

 

[rbell]

Bush was an abortionist. Millions of abortions occurred during his administration. Worse than that, like his father and Ronald Reagan before him, he duped evangelical Christians into voting for him because he said the right words against abortion but then did very little about it. Their blood is on your hands if you voted for him. The blood of innocent Iraqi noncombatants killed by our troops is also on your hands.

Thanks for comparing our troops to murderers. You're in a sad way.

I used to enjoy talking to you. But seriously, dude, you are so consumed with hate that you are an unpleasant person. Bitterness is eating you alive. You need to get that taken care of.

You'll probably ignore me, or come back with a statement...but JC, you seriously need to get a handle on this hate.

Feel free to come back with some sort of comeback...probably including the words "Bush" or "neo-con," even though that isn't the subject matter here.

But you are aware, I hope, that your witness is being compromised because of your hate for others.

 

[rbell]

Once you reach a certain level of hate...you are bothered when your "enemy" isn't as evil as you want him/her to be.

I think that JC is so angry that it bothers him if our troops aren't the bad guys. He needs them to be evil so his hatred for President Bush can be satiated.

Just MHO.

 

[PeterM]

Agreed, we must be discipled and have much to learn, but do you not think the Holy Spirit is involved in this process? Before I was saved I could treat people a poorly and not even realize it. Once saved I was convivted by the spirit when I mistreated someone. The discipling teaches me how to respond but the knowlege of the wrong is there.

To apply this to the abortion issue I really think the Spirit would let you know that abortion is wrong IMHO.

I don't think we are really far off here, you and I. The work of discipleship is a joint effort between those involved in the work and the HS. Conviction is certainly one of the blessings and benefits of the HS, but the Scriptures must provide both the context and confirmation of that conviction. When I came to my own salvation, I was already "conservative" and believed that abortion was wrong. After my salvation, what I believed about abortion now had the substance of faith behind it.

I guess I am thinking of the folks who made up the Church at Corinth. They struggled with many cultural/moral issues that clouded the purity of their faith. I am grateful for Paul in his work to bring correcting, not only in how they behaved, but in what they believed. The HS used Paul to bring correction. No matter how much abortion disgusts and reviles us, there have been and probably will be believers who need to receive correction and reproof if they continue to think abortion is acceptable.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I don't think we are really far off here, you and I. The work of discipleship is a joint effort between those involved in the work and the HS. Conviction is certainly one of the blessings and benefits of the HS, but the Scriptures must provide both the context and confirmation of that conviction. When I came to my own salvation, I was already "conservative" and believed that abortion was wrong. After my salvation, what I believed about abortion now had the substance of faith behind it.

I guess I am thinking of the folks who made up the Church at Corinth. They struggled with many cultural/moral issues that clouded the purity of their faith. I am grateful for Paul in his work to bring correcting, not only in how they behaved, but in what they believed. The HS used Paul to bring correction. No matter how much abortion disgusts and reviles us, there have been and probably will be believers who need to receive correction and reproof if they continue to think abortion is acceptable.

I agree, we may be only differing in terminolgy and not necassarily doctrinally. I believe that a change must occur when one gets saved? I've read a few post on the BB that sound as if a person remains the same before and after salvation. It could be that I have misunderstood what they were saying. I have found that much of the arguing beween Christians is misunderstanding what the other person is saying and that could be the case on my part. However. I find a doctrine that states the believer is not changed on conversion very dangerous.

 

[thegospelgeek]

JC

You have yet to answer my question as to how many soldiers you have spoken with in regard to what is happening in Iraq?

 

[PeterM]

I agree, we may be only differing in terminolgy and not necassarily doctrinally. I believe that a change must occur when one gets saved? I've read a few post on the BB that sound as if a person remains the same before and after salvation. It could be that I have misunderstood what they were saying. I have found that much of the arguing beween Christians is misunderstanding what the other person is saying and that could be the case on my part. However. I find a doctrine that states the believer is not changed on conversion very dangerous.

Dangerous... unfounded... unbiblical... and arguably heretical.