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Be killing your philosophy or it'll be killing you?

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
You said we were false prophets and teachers not because of doctrine, but the fruit that was produced by it.
You thanked baptist board for silencing your critics....yes...he read the same post.
You mean the OP???????

Brother, you have to stop trying to ensnare other people. You are becoming careless in your desire to slander other Christians.

The OP is not about all Calvinists - (I also affirm the Doctrines of Grace). It is not even about most Calvinists (I'd have no way of knowing). Read the OP - it is not even about Calvinists. It is about the fruits of the doctrine we believe.

Are we better for our views? Or does our views lead us to try to trap people even at the cost of our integrity?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Is this what you are talking about? (I think it is the one @canadyjd was referencing, although I think he thought I was calling all Calvinists ungodly false teachers):
What thread was this post on?
You references me by name two or three times...@iconoclast
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
What thread was this post on?
You references me by name two or three times...@iconoclast
I do not know when I referenced you by name. But the post where I referred to some people - Calvinists AND non-Calvinists - as meeting the definition of being false teachers is this one in the OP.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I do not know when I referenced you by name. But the post where I referred to some people - Calvinists AND non-Calvinists - as meeting the definition of being false teachers is this one in the OP.
No...it was a thread or two before this one which is not the complete post.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
No...it was a thread or two before this one which is not the complete post.
@Iconoclast , I have no idea what you are going on about. I do not know what you mean by "not the complete post". I do not know why you would believe I thanked the Baptist Board for silencing anyone. I do not even know why it matters.

I do not know if you misread something, attributed to me something someone else wrote, are being intentionally dishonest, or imagined a post. But it is time to move on.

I promise you that I NEVER thanked the Baptist Board for silencing anyone - not a current member, not a former member, not a guest (not sure how that'd work). It simply did not happen.

If you want to make a search, then take your time. Here are the thread's I've been involved in over the last few days -

Calvinism
Be killing your philosophy or it’ll be killing you
Reformed Fundamentalism
Knowing vs Feeling in Worship
Closed minded?
Neither Arminianism nor Calvinism
Once Saved always saved
Does anyone shop at ALDI?
Let them pump gas.

I am not sure who you imagined I was thanking the BB for silencing, but you could also do a search for their name as well (if this is not just a dishonest smoke screen).
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
No...it was a thread or two before this one which is not the complete post.
You know, I do not know what the accusation you tossed out is supposed to mean. It does not make sense to me. Thanking the BB for silencing someone???

But I see you made a comment and you are stuck with it. Maybe that's all that it was, an accidental error you could not own up to.

If it helps you move on, then "thank you Baptist Board for those whom you silenced!".

Now you can feel justified. I don't know what that is supposed to mean, or what it means to you, but now you can honestly say that I said it.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes - Shaffer.

I can think of a very long list of godly Calvinists and non-Calvinists. I wonder why we have so many bad ones now. Why are the "heros" of the Christian faith (regardless of soteriological positions) heros of the past? Why this obsession with Christian philosophy when people are dying without the gospel?
Francis Chan
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well JonC interesting that you can see this and yet it's a mystery to you as to why? I'm not sure why it should be. Consider. Does not Calvinistic thinking regardless of what some might claim effect many in their consciousness as cause them to think other human beings really don't have value. Obviously non-Calvinist believe God loves all meaning they're important. If you're truly thinking some are just meant for darkness and destruction how much love and patience can you really show them. Oh you know you're supposed to but how much heart conviction can you really draw up with any great passion. So couldn't this answer your question?
So then, I have a question for you. Do you believe in the sovereignty of Gods Grace? Do you believe that salvation ultimately depends on a sinners own choice?
 

Criostai

New Member
Do you believe in God's Loving Grace? Do you believe God's Sovereinty precludes and supercedes all of His other attributes? Do you believe God could create creatures with a free will and still be Sovereign? God does no evil and tempts none to evil. That must mean evil comes from somewhere other than God. God provided everything needed to save all as the Bible clearly states in many places. In his Sovereignty he has made faith the way that we can have eternal life in Christ. Faith is simply "looking" at Christ and receiving life. Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men unto Himself. Praise God for salvation full and free. Faith is not a work, the Bible makes this abundantly clear by setting them in contrast to each other. Blessings on you.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you believe in God's Loving Grace? Do you believe God's Sovereinty precludes and supercedes all of His other attributes? Do you believe God could create creatures with a free will and still be Sovereign? God does no evil and tempts none to evil. That must mean evil comes from somewhere other than God. God provided everything needed to save all as the Bible clearly states in many places. In his Sovereignty he has made faith the way that we can have eternal life in Christ. Faith is simply "looking" at Christ and receiving life. Jesus said if He be lifted up He would draw all men unto Himself. Praise God for salvation full and free. Faith is not a work, the Bible makes this abundantly clear by setting them in contrast to each other. Blessings on you.
You are answering my questions with questions.....Dont do that!

Answer like a confident adult.
 

Criostai

New Member
You are answering my questions with questions.....Dont do that!

Answer like a confident adult.
I answered with more than questions. I did answer you and I am confident in my answers.
By the way, Jesus was asked 183 questions and he only answered 3 of them. But He asked over 300 questions. Peace to you.
 

Criostai

New Member
I answered with more than questions. I did answer you and I am confident in my answers.
By the way, Jesus was asked 183 questions and he only answered 3 of them. But He asked over 300 questions. Peace to you.
To clarify, by my questions, I was rejecting the underlying premises of your questions.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
To clarify, by my questions, I was rejecting the underlying premises of your questions.
Let me try one last time OK

You are not Jesus. But it appears you like to talk in riddles. I however prefer people who provide direct answers to my questions. Do that and we will be fine, otherwise don’t continue with conversation cause it ain’t going to work with me.
 

RighteousnessTemperance&

Well-Known Member
I think that we are often hard on the group of people to which we belong because we have an intimate knowledge of that group and see the issues associated therein. I typically associate with a Calvinistic minded segment when the topic tends towards soteriological predestination within Christian philosophy because this segment most represents my view (I’d lean towards Edwards on the issue, which would make me a bit left of center).

What I’ve noticed, both in the “real world” and on the Baptist Board is the extent to which Calvinists would comprise a group Scripture defines as “false prophets” or “false teachers” based not necessarily on their teachings but on their fruit. I am sure this is true of other camps and subgroups as well.

This does not mean these people are not saved. I have been guilty of producing poor fruit when it comes to interactions on this board and in other life situations. Christians are disciples who are on the journey of sanctification. Scripture reminds us of an ever-present need for repentance and belief.

But when the fruit betrays a disease in the plant that condition must be address appropriately. As John Owens wrote, “Be killing sin or it will be killing you.”

Francis Chan wrote that when we “submit to the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit, He helps us become more holy—more like Jesus. It is a lifelong journey of putting our flesh to death, or as Paul puts it in Galatians 5, of walking by the Spirit and not gratifying the desires of the flesh. We cannot live submitted to the Spirit and at the same time gratify the flesh because these two “are opposed to each other” (Gal. 5:17). The works of the flesh are things like strife, fits of anger, dissensions, and idolatry. The works of the Spirit are things like love, self-control, joy, and faithfulness.”

Is this the effect of your position? When I look at Calvinism “on the ground” (rather than from academia) it is apparent to me that Calvinists have in a large part earned the reputation as hateful, prideful, and arrogant. But why does the doctrine produce such fruit?

As a whole are we a more loving people than non-Christians? Are we more forgiving to others? Are we more just a people? More peaceful?

(Reference: Chan, Francis. Forgotten God: Reversing Our Tragic Neglect of the Holy Spirit; John Owens, The Mortification of Sin; Galatians 5:22-26; Matthew 7:15-16 ; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 )
The question is important and I will not say I know all of the reasons for behaving that way, but there is a certain tendency toward pride when we think we know better than others.

As Paul said in his intro to addressing the matter of food sacrificed to idols in One Corinthians 8:1, “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.” And you are right that it is not limited to a particular camp, or to only some individuals. Our pride is just itching to express itself, especially self-righteously.
 
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