Be ye separate?

Living by a list of do's and don'ts is not spiritual... it is legalism. It is laying out just how far I can go and still be "holier than thou." It is trying to draw a box around God, His power, and His grace.

Where do I draw the line? As was said above, if it comes between me and the Lord, it is worldly. If it causes my brother to stumble or doubt, it is sin, but not necessarily worldly.

What a person wears or looks like doesn't mean diddly. Jesus wore robes... as did all other men as well as the women. Jesus had long hair... as did all the other Jewish men. Jesus wore a beard... the same as everyone else did. Jesus wore sandals (gasp!) into the temple, and He didn't bathe every day.

It is easy to throw verses here and yon, especially when you go digging in the OT for them. Last I checked we were under grace (praise the Lord!) and not under the Law.

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
(Mat 23:1-7)

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
(Mat 23:13-15)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
(Mat 23:23-28)

Not the kind of company I would prefer to keep, thank you.

 

Funny about where we are to draw the line depending on the time...

For example, I am wearing wire rim glasses that I heard preached against when I was 16 because john Lennon wore them.

I am sitting at a computer on the internet that some preachers preached against as the gateway to evil.

When you ask about where fundamentalists draw the line, you have to ask about what issue. Personally I draw the line where the Bible draws the line and that has to do with sinful actions and attitudes and with actions that will harm a weaker believer.

 

As with music, women in pants, and the misuse of scripture we see the pharisee coming out quite clearly. I for one want nothing to do with this form of fundamentalism. You can keep your lists of which music is acceptable and which is not. You can keep your lists of acceptable garmets. You can continue to aruge over the word Easter. You can keep your supposed only legitimate version of the Bible and I'll keep my freedom in Christ.

 

As does the mis-interpretation of them.

 

Christ gave us 2 rules to live by: Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Notice that LOVE is our motivation to be "separate" not a list of do's and don'ts based on personal preferences in music, dress, Bible versions, or hair length.

 

Cracks me up those that deride lists of dos and don'ts as legalism. Read Galatians and find out what legalism is Biblcially then just snoop the Bible and note the mannnnny lists of dos and don'ts. :tongue3:

 

Legalism is making a list of do's and don'ts based on man's PREFERENCE not biblical mandate, then expecting everyone else to follow the listmakers rules of spirituality.

 

Like I said read Galatians. :tongue3:

 

I have, and I'm sure everyone here has, too. For that matter, I've read the entire KJV Bible cover to cover and I still haven't found:

Thou shalt not go to the movies
Thou shalt not wear make up
Thou shalt not wear earrings
Thou shalt not wear blue jeans
Thou shalt only sing hymns with a piano or organ
Thou shalt only read the KJV

I'm not trying to be silly here. These are actual rules that I was taught as a child. My heart attitude didn't matter a hill of beans as long as on the outside I obeyed my father's dictator style authority and followed the rules. As long as I followed the rules, God would be pleased with me.

It is this type of garbage that drives people away from Christ, because rules become the task master and do NOT instill in one a true love for God or desire to do right. We IFB's have it completely backwards. We should be focusing on LOVING GOD because our love for him will make us want to please him.

I want nothing to do with ANY religion that enslaves a person to a rigid set of man made rules.

 

I dont' feel so bad. I wasn't allowed to dance or listen to pop music in elementary school. When I got to high school, all of a sudden, those things were okay. And I went to private Christian schools all the way through grade 12.

 

Sorry to see you go- I was hoping you'd stick around, learn some things and maybe grow up a little bit.

I have been busy, but I was thinking- what is a good example of worldliness from the Scripture? Got to thinking about the Prodigal Son- no one would deny that he made the wrong choice. But the part most folks miss is this- the other son was JUST AS WORLDLY as his prodigal brother (before he, the prodigal, repented.) The older son never ran off, always did his father's will, but he was no better than his admittedly worldly brother!

May that be a lesson to us all- Jeremiah says something like, "the heart is desperately wicked, who can know it?" Just because someone looks like a Christian, dresses like a Christian, smells like one, talks like one, does what they do... does NOT make them a Christian. And just because someone smokes, has long hair, listens to rock music, (insert your favorite Pharisaical judgment here), etc. does NOT make them NOT a Christian.

 

Interesting post. It's been a while since I've read a work of interesting fiction. I gotta admit, there's just something odd about a KJVOist calling other people compromisers.

 

"I still haven't found:

Thou shalt not go to the movies
Thou shalt not wear make up
Thou shalt not wear earrings
Thou shalt not wear blue jeans
Thou shalt only sing hymns with a piano or organ
Thou shalt only read the KJV"

Don't recall saying you would.

The point was your definition of legalism.

 

Translation: Yikes! I'm losing this argument. Better jump out now, while claiming the moral high ground.

 

I think this is a very difficult subject and one that should not be too quickly thought easily answered in one’s mind, regardless of our view.
Personally for most of my life I probably have fallen more on the side of the fence with those that say we shouldn’t be quick to make up a list of rules. However if I am to be honest with myself I realize that we all have rules or lines that we feel are best not best crossed. The big difference is how we tend view our own standards, ones that we have concluded we are comfortable with a little differently than we do when someone else tells us theirs.
These past few years I have grown to appreciate the value of maybe placing more strict standards of separation from some things that in it of themselves I really don’t feel are outright wrong or too worldly. Some verses that have led me to that conclusion are 1 Peter 2:12 and 1 Cor 8:9-13.

Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe {them,} glorify God in the day of visitation. 1 Peter 2:12

But take care that this liberty of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to stumble. 1 Cor 8:9-13

I’ll give one example. Personally I think having a glass of wine or a beer with diner is not a sin. However I chose some years back to abstain from any and all drinking. I concluded that while I feel I have the liberty to do so, I at the same time bear a much greater burden to not risk being a stumbling block to anyone. And I even liked the taste of beer (grin), but it just isn’t that important, not when put in context of these scriptures. And I have found that there are many things that when in that context are just not that important.

Then there are other areas, or what one might call areas of "seperation" that I have more easily come to except as maybe wiser to try and consider for myself and my family on a personal level. The funny thing is I find that I am still much more “liberal” than many on certain things, while at the same time being much more “conservative” to many others on yet other things.

I guess my point is just this. On a subject as this, I find it uncomfortable to just quickly dismiss the views and convictions of anyone brother or sister in Christ. I am not sure it is as easy as that.

 

Personally, I don't have time to strain at gnats. Many strain at gnats, shaking the dust off their feet, as many around them die and go to hell. The disciples were to shake the dust off their feet toward towns that rejected the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not whether or not they believed in the nebulous doctrine of secondary separation with all it's legalistic trappings.

 

The OT quote "be ye separate" in Corinthians is about not partnering with unbelievers in business or marriage.

The principle is not to take on worldly behavior and attitudes. It's not a set of rules about not wearing certain items or listening to certain music. Besides, we are to let the Holy Spirit shape us; we don't get sanctified overnight. As time has gone by, I have stopped seeing certain movies and listening to certain music; but this was from conviction. It would not have helped to have had someone give me their list of do's and don't's.