beginnings...

Again thanks rsr,

I admit what I have found on this group is not encouraging to say the least, though at their beginnings it seems to have been pretty sound, the influence of 'new' light seems to have seduced them.

Here is a link I have found:

http://www.reformedreader.org/history/vedder/ch05.htm

I may have already posted this site, if so forgive me for repetition.

I believe I read here that Tertullian later broke with the Montanists.

Definitely an area requiring more study against the Truth of Scripture.

Just something to think about:

In studying the Waldensians, it was once remarked to me that thier confession of faith, which is recorded online at some places and is found in the History of the churches of the Valley of the Piedmont, contains the affirmation of the believe in the universal church theory. Is it possible that such language is used because it is the general language of the opposition and would be that which most general readers would understand? Or is this just grasping at straws? I don't know. This certainly does not justify any pretense of new light, but it is something I have thought about before.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

Bro. Dallas,

Just a thought, I know that you as I am, are searching for the truth about the Church and it's begginning. I think this is important.

But, I have come to the conclusion that becasue of the treatment of the Catholics and later the Protestant religions much of the "true church" history has been lost. It does not matter if I can not clearly see in all ages the complete marks of Baptist theology, as like a river that is sent underground, when it does come out the pure water is seen by all. We do have enough windows of knowledge to see that our God's guiding hand was true and faithful to his word, and the truth was alway evident in the world, even when we cannot see it.

Richard

 

This board makes it evident that the true church of Christ isn't in succession, but in practice.

Many churches through the ages have grown cold and lost their "candlestick", their light has gine out and they have become ritualistic, dead mausoleums.

The true church, be it Baptist or some other name, follows the faith and practice of the church started by Christ in Matthew 16.

The reason for the Baptist name used to be an identification for those who refused to follow the Protestants and RCC. Sadly today the Baptist name is no guarantee that one is going to receive the whole counsel of God. Too many compromisers in the pulpits of todays churches afraid for their jobs. Boy, they are sure trusting the Lord, huh?

Succession today is a myth. If some of the churches today coul be traced back to the first church, that church would be ashamed were they in the world today.

 

The Waldensian Confessions Of Faith... Taken from PB.org... Brother Glen

Waldensian Confessions of Faith
(Reproduced from Jone's Church History)

Waldenses Confession of 1120
1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the apostles' creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles.

2. We believe that there is one God - the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible. (Here follows the title of each, exactly conformable to our received canon, but which it is deemed, on that account, quite unnecessary to particularize.)

4. The books above-mentioned teach us: That there is one GOD, almighty, unbounded in wisdom, and infinite in goodness, and who, in His goodness, has made all things. For He created Adam after His own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the Devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam.

5. That Christ had been promised to the fathers who received the law, to the end that, knowing their sin by the law, and their unrighteousness and insufficiency, they might desire the coming of Christ to make satisfaction for their sins, and to accomplish the law by Himself.

6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born - a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display His grace and mercy towards us.

7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness - our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for their justification.

8. And we also firmly believe, that there is no other mediator, or advocate with God the Father, but Jesus Christ. And as to the Virgin Mary, she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and this we also believe concerning all other saints, namely, that they are waiting in heaven for the resurrection of their bodies at the day of judgment.

9. We also believe, that, after this life, there are but two places - one for those that are saved, the other for the damned, which [two] we call paradise and hell, wholly denying that imaginary purgatory of Antichrist, invented in opposition to the truth.

10. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the inventions of men [in the affairs of religion] as an unspeakable abomination before God; such as the festival days and vigils of saints, and what is called holy-water, the abstaining from flesh on certain days, and such like things, but above all, the masses.

11. We hold in abhorrence all human inventions, as proceeding from Antichrist, which produce distress (Alluding probably to the voluntary penances and mortification imposed by the Catholics on themselves), and are prejudicial to the liberty of the mind.

12 We consider the Sacraments as signs of holy things, or as the visible emblems of invisible blessings. We regard it as proper and even necessary that believers use these symbols or visible forms when it can be done. Notwithstanding which, we maintain that believers may be saved without these signs, when they have neither place nor opportunity of observing them.

13. We acknowledge no sacraments [as of divine appointment] but baptism and the Lord's supper.

14. We honour the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment.


Waldenses Confession of 1544
1. We believe that there is but one God, who is a Spirit - the Creator of all things - the Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all; who is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth - upon whom we are continually dependent, and to whom we ascribe praise for our life, food, raiment, health, sickness, prosperity, and adversity. We love him as the source of all goodness; and reverence him as that sublime being, who searches the reins and trieth the hearts of the children of men.

2. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and image of the Father - that in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells, and that by Him alone we know the Father. He is our Mediator and advocate; nor is there any other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. In His name alone we call upon the Father, using no other prayers than those contained in the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance agreeable thereunto.

3. We believe in the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, proceeding from the Father, and from the Son; by whose inspiration we are taught to pray; being by Him renewed in the spirit of our minds; who creates us anew unto good works, and from whom we receive the knowledge of the truth.

4. We believe that there is one holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have existed from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord Jesus Christ is the head - it is governed by His word and guided by the Holy Spirit. In the church it behooves all Christians to have fellowship. For her He [Christ] prays incessantly, and His prayer for it is most acceptable to God, without which indeed their could be no salvation.

5. We hold that the ministers of the church ought to be unblameable both in life and doctrine; and if found otherwise, that they ought to be deposed from their office, and others substituted in their stead; and that no person ought to presume to take that honour unto himself but he who is called of God as was Aaron - that the duties of such are to feed the flock of God, not for filthy lucre's sake, or as having dominion over God's heritage, but as being examples to the flock, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, and in chastity.

6. We acknowledge, that kings, princes, and governors, are the appointed and established ministers of God, whom we are bound to obey [in all lawful and civil concerns]. For they bear the sword for the defence of the innocent, and the punishment of evil doers; for which reason we are bound to honour and pay them tribute. From this power and authority, no man can exempt himself as is manifest from the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, who voluntarily paid tribute, not taking upon himself any jurisdiction of temporal power.

7. We believe that in the ordinance of baptism the water is the visible and external sign, which represents to as that which, by virtue of God's invisible operation, is within us - namely, the renovation of our minds, and the mortification of our members through [the faith of] Jesus Christ. And by this ordinance we are received into the holy congregation of God's people, previously professing and declaring our faith and change of life.

8. We hold that the Lord's supper is a commemoration of, and thanksgiving for, the benefits which we have received by His sufferings and death - and that it is to be received in faith and love - examining ourselves, that so we may eat of that bread and drink of that cup, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.

9. We maintain that marriage was instituted of God. That it is holy and honourable, and ought to be forbidded to none, provided there be no obstacle from the divine word.

10. We contend, that all those in whom the fear of God dwells, will thereby be led to please him, and to abound in the good works [of the gospel] which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them - which are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, sobriety, and the other good works enforced in the Holy Scriptures.

11. On the other hand, we confess that we consider it to be our duty to beware of false teachers, whose object is to divert the minds of men from the true worship of God, and to lead them to place their confidence in the creature, as well as to depart from the good works of the gospel, and to regard the inventions of men.

12. We take the Old and the New Testament for the rule of our life, and we agree with the general confession of faith contained in [what is usually termed] the apostles' creed.

 

The Pepuzians
OR
The Monatanists

Mistakenly Montanists have been seen as the early sober minded Charismatics who had been stifled by dead orthodoxy. While there are similarities they did show unhealthy tendencies that would distance them from Christians of any age.

They originated in the middle of the second century and continued into the early third century. The main relevance to the Ordination of Women debate is that it caused many respected leaders to give their opinion on public ministry of women in general and as prophetesses.

First as to the various names, Nathaniel Lardner says "They are called Montanists from Montanus; Phrygians and Cata-Phrygians from the country where they sprang up; Pepuzians from a village in Phrygia, which was respected by them as another Jerusalem."(1).

Montanus was "a native of Ardabau, a village in Phrygia, who in the latter half of the second century originated a widespread schism of which traces remained for centuries. ... He taught that God's supernatural revelations did not end with the apostles, but that even more wonderful manifestations of the divine energy might be expected under he dispensation of the Paraclete. ... We are told that Montanus claimed to be a prophet and spoke in a kind of possession or ecstacy."(2).

"His prophesyings were soon outdone by two female disciples, Prisca or Priscilla and Maximilla, who fell into strange ecstasies, delivering in them what Montanus and his followers regarded as divine prophecies. They had been married, left their husbands, were given by Montanus the rank of virgins in the church, and were widely reverenced as prophetesses."(3).

"But very different was the sober judgement formed of them by some of the neighbouring bishops. Phrygia was a country in which heathen devotions exhibited itself in the most fanatical form and it seemed to calm observers that the frenzied utterances of the Montanistic prophetesses were far less like any previous manifestations of the prophetic gift among Christians than they were to those heathen orgiasms which the church had been wont to ascribe to the operations of demons."(4).

"The church party party looked on the Montanists as wilfully despising our Lord's warning to beware of false prophets, and as being in consequence deluded by Satan, in whose power they had placed themselves by accepting as divine teachers women possessed by evil spirits. The Montanists looked on the church leaders as men who did despite to the Spirit of God by offering the indignity of exorcism to those whom He had chosen as His organs for communicating with the church."(5).

"Not withstanding the condemnation of Montanism and the excommunication of Montanists by neighbouring bishops, it continued to spread and make converts. Visitors came from far to witness the wonderful phenomena; ... Possibly A.D. 157 may be the date of the conversion of Montanus, A.D. 172 that of his formal condemnation by the Asiatic church authorities."(6).

"Themiso seems to have been, after Montanus, the head of the Montanists. He was at any rate their leading man at Pepuza; and this was the headquarters of the sect. There probably Montanus had taught; there the prophetesses Priscilla and Maximilla resided; there Priscilla had seen in a vision Christ come in the form of a woman in a bright garment, who inspired her with wisdom and informed her that Pepuza was the holy place and that there the New Jerusalem was to descend from heaven."(7).

"Thenceforth Pepuza and the neighbouring village Tymium became the Montanist holy place habitually spoken of as Jerusalem. ... Montanus himself did not live long to preside over his sect, and this is perhaps why it is seldom called by the name of its founder"(8).

"Whereas Maximilla had foretold wars and tumults, there had been more than thirteen years since her death with no general or partial war, and the Christians had enjoyed continual peace."(9).

"The Montanists did not reject the apostolic revelations ... The revelations of the new prophecy were to supplement, not to displace Scripture. ... Accordingly Tertullian [while still a Montanist] appeals to the new revelations on questions of discipline, e.g. second marriages, ... Thus Tertullian derives his doctrine as to the materiality and form of the soul from a revelation made to an ecstactica of his congregation."(10).

To those who believed in their divine inspiration, these would practically form additional Scriptures. Hippolytus tells that the Montanists 'have an infinity of books of these prophets whose words they neither examine by reason, nor give heed to those who can, but are carried away by their undiscriminating faith in them, thinking that they learn through their means something more than from the law, the prophets, and the gospels.'"(11)

"Didymus is shocked at a prophetical book emanating from a female, whom the apostle did not permit to teach. It would be a mistake to suppose that the Montanistic disputes led to the formation of the New Testament canon. On the contrary, it is plain that when these disputes arose Christians has so far closed their New Testament canon that they were shocked that any modern writing should be made equal to the inspired books of the apostolic age."(12)(12).

"Montanist Doctrines and Practices. ... What, then, was the nature of the additions actually made by the Montanists? New Fasts ... two weeks of what was called Xerophagy ... In these Montanists abstained, not only from flesh and wine, and the use of the bath, but from all succulent food, e.g. juicy fruit, except on Saturday and Sunday. ...The weekly ... half fasts which in the church ended at three p.m. were by Montanists usually continued till evening. The church party resisted the claim that these two new weeks of abstinence were divinely obligatory. The real question was, Had the prophetess God's command for instituting them?"(13).

"They ... had many rules about fasting and abstinence. ... The catholics said that such things ought not to be imposed on men. If any thought fit to mortify themselves they were at liberty so to do."(14).

"Second Marriages. On this subject again the difference between the Montanists and the church really reduces itself to the question as whether the Paraclete [Holy Spirit] spoke by Monatanus. Second marriages had before Montanus been regarded with disfavour in the church. ... But however unfavourably such marriages were regarded, their validity and lawfulness were not denied."(15).

This meant to Montanists "Whoever married a second time, though his first wife was dead, was excommunicated by them."(16).

"They did not allow the church the power to forgive great sins after baptism; or that they who so fell should ever after be admitted again to full communion, though they repented. Nay, Tertullian seems to say there is no salvation or forgiveness for such persons; and that Christ does not intercede for them."(17).

"They were also against flight in persercution, and against giving money to redeem themselves from ill usage of persecutors, or to procure any mitigation of affliction from them. They moreover met together openly, and in great numbers, in a way that was reckoned indiscreet by many other Christians. They were Millenaries, as appears from Tertullian."(18).

"Theodoret's account is, that Montanus made no innovation in the doctrine of the Trinity, or the creation of the world: but afterwards some of his followers denied the hypostases, and agreed with Sabellius and Noetus. The author of the Additions to Tertullian's book of Prescriptions says there were two parties among them, who had different sentiments about the Trinity. It must be reckoned probable that some of them were in the Sabellian or Unitarian scheme. For it is affirmed by many writers of antiquity; by Jerome and Isidore of Pelusium, as well as the others just mentioned."(19).

I have omitted the less credible tales regarding the Montanists such as using human blood in their feasts, and those which may have been peculiar to one person such as Tertullian... Taken from google.com under the heading Montanists... Brother Glen

 

Thanks Brethren for all the discussion. I do agree these things are difficult to confirm from historical record, but being a student of history I must admit as well this is true even of secular histories [esp. of nations].

My concern with the Montanists is that which as is stated above and as I have found in a cursory look at them that of seeming to fall prey to seducing spirits. This shows a tendency of influence from superstition. I also was displeased in the record of the two 'prophetesses' leaving their husbands.

God Bless All

Bro. Dallas Eaton

Matt. 27.25

 

Brethren, here is a link from the HBS group at yahoo groups:

http://generalbaptist.net/resources/acrobat/annual_register.PDF

It is a listing of Baptist churches and associations in North America to October 1790. From the short reading I have done of the article it is full of useful information.

Check it out and see what you think.

I know it is not 'ancient' Baptist history, but we must cross the 'American' episode in our heritage at some point, right? I think this will prove to be a very useful document to any interested.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton
Matt. 27.25