Being saved.

[37818]

On the spectrum of genuine Christians having beliefs about being saved there exists some disagreement.

Personally, I have always as a saved Christian believed being saved, one would now have etenal life with the assurance of going to Heaven when one should die. And that being so, could not be something one could ever lose. The notion that a saved person could become lost made no sense to me. A person who dies and goes to "hell" would not have been saved. Saved means one is going to Heaven.

Now I have been a Christian since the summer of 1962 when I was lead to Christ at a baptist church.

 

[Reformed1689]

We agree.

 

[1689Dave]

On the spectrum of genuine Christians having beliefs about being saved there exists some disagreement.

Personally, I have always as a saved Christian believed being saved, one would now have etenal life with the assurance of going to Heaven when one should die. And that being so, could not be something one could ever lose. The notion that a saved person could become lost made no sense to me. A person who dies and goes to "hell" would not have been saved. Saved means one is going to Heaven.

Now I have been a Christian since the summer of 1962 when I was lead to Christ at a baptist church.

It appears that you trust in your decision rather than in Christ. The truth is, Jesus, says whoever believes has eternal life. This means you were saved before you made your decision or you would not have believed enough to make it. But the version of the gospel you heard made you, not Christ, the savior. Even though grace saves those who are confused along with the enlightened.

 

[Dave G]

On the spectrum of genuine Christians having beliefs about being saved there exists some disagreement.

My friend, genuine Christians all have several things in common:

1) The Holy Spirit as Teacher who leads them into all truth ( John 16:13, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).
2) The Holy Spirit as Comforter in this world ( John 14:16 ) who leads them and bears witness with their spirit that they are the sons and daughters of God ( Romans 8:14-16 ).
3) One faith, one baptism.
4) Sound and Biblical doctrines versus false doctrines....doctrines of God versus doctrines of devils.

So, how is it that there is disagreement among them given the above?

Either all who profess Christ are "the genuine article" and indwelt with the same Spirit, producing the same spiritual fruits ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), or they are not.
Either they are those who have received the seed ( the word of God ) into good ground ( a new heart ) and bring forth fruits pleasing to God, or they are not ( Matthew 13:18-23 ).
Either they are all "wheat", or there are "tares" in the mix ( Matthew 13:36-43 ).


Either someone who believes that they are saved really is,
or there are many who will hear, " ...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) because they heard about how they could escape the wrath of God and the benefits of being a Christian...
But the Lord never really did get a hold of them through his Spirit and through His word.


Given all of that,
I believe that everyone who professes Christ should examine themselves closely ( and with regard to the word of God ), to see if they really are in the faith.

Yes, the believer can be carried about with every wind of doctrine, but they will not stay there ( Ephesians 4:11-16 ).
Yes, the believer can actually have assurance of their salvation, but that assurance should always be based on the evidence of Him doing ( and having done ) His work in and through them ( 1 John 2, 1 John 3, 1 John 4, 1 John 5:1-13 ).

Yes, we should cling to His every word, because in Him we have life and we live by those words ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).

 

[37818]

1) The Holy Spirit as Teacher who leads them into all truth.

That is the way it should work. But on some key points of truth genuine Christians disagree on some things the texts say and mean. As to Ephesians 2:8 for an example text.

. . . Either someone who believes that they are saved really is, or there are many who will hear, " ...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." ( Matthew 7:21-23 ), . . .

Those professing Christians in Matthew 7:21-23 were trusting in their own works as per verse 22. And so were never yet saved.

 

[MB]

It appears that you trust in your decision rather than in Christ. The truth is, Jesus, says whoever believes has eternal life. This means you were saved before you made your decision or you would not have believed enough to make it. But the version of the gospel you heard made you, not Christ, the savior. Even though grace saves those who are confused along with the enlightened.

Waiting to be saved by a ficticious means as you describe for Salvation is ridiculous and found no where in scripture.
MB

 

[Dave G]

That is the way it should work.

I agree...
It should work that way, but it doesn't.

 

[Dave G]

But on some key points of truth genuine Christians disagree on some things the texts say and mean.

I both agree and disagree.
On some key points of truth, no genuine Christian, who is being led into all truth by the Spirit, will remain in disagreement for their entire lives with another who is also being led by the same Spirit.

Again,
Not everyone who professes Christ is a "genuine" Christian.
Not everyone who professes to believe, is born again and has the Spirit of God as their witness, Comforter and Teacher....
Why do you think people can go decades in constant study of His words, and never agree ( or understand in common ) with what is written on the pages?

Not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord" will enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
Not everyone who claims, up and down, adamantly and with full conviction to be His, is truly and genuinely one of Christ's sheep.

Either they will eventually come together in the unity of the faith ( Ephesians 4:1-16 ) once delivered to the saints ( Jude 1:3 ), or they will not.
If there is continued disagreement among professing believers on any subject, then there is one of two things that is at work:
One is saved and the other is not, or,
Both are not, and they are both following a "christ" that is not Him.

That my friend, is why there are denominations...
Because there are both false teachers and false believers in the visible body of Christ.
There is no such thing as "orthodoxy" ( a fuzzy gray area of "truth" that all hold in common )...

There is only one faith, or a number of false versions of it.

 

[Dave G]

Those professing Christians in Matthew 7:21-23 were trusting in their own works as per verse 22. And so were never yet saved.

I agree.

To me, they were trusting in the things that they did for God ( like believe, repent, go to church, etc ), and not what God did for them....
Give them to His Son to save, per John 17:2.

But I see something far deeper there in Matthew 7:21-22, given what the epistles say, in the details...
Those professing Christ were never known ( Romans 8:29-30 ) by Him.

 

[kyredneck]

The truth is, Jesus, says whoever believes has eternal life.

Agree! Eternal life is a free gift. One is not rewarded with it due to act of faith on their part. All those believing already are in possession of it:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

 

[kyredneck]

I have always as a saved Christian believed being saved, one would now have etenal life with the assurance of going to Heaven when one should die.

'Saved' [sozo] has to be interpreted on an individual basis, Most applications of the word are intended other than in the eternal sense. Mainstream Christianity has gommed the word up to be synonymous with regeneration or born from above when it is correctly to be understood as 'made whole', delivered, rescued, made safe in this temporal realm. Lost sheep become saved sheep when they come home to the kingdom through obedience to the gospel here on earth. No matter what they do they will always be His sheep.

If your interpretation of sozo is correct then one absolutely must be water baptized to go to heaven:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39
For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3

...to cite a few...

 

[kyredneck]

YLT:
21 for she said within herself, `If only I may touch his garment, I shall be saved.`
22 And Jesus having turned about, and having seen her, said, `Be of good courage, daughter, thy faith hath saved thee,` and the woman was saved from that hour. Mt 9

ASV:
21 for she said within herself, If I do but touch his garment, I shall be made whole.
22 But Jesus turning and seeing her said, Daughter, be of good cheer; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. Mt 9

...one of many examples.

 

[37818]

I agree...
It should work that way, but it doesn't.

Never at all? 1 John 2:27, ". . . But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. . . ."

1 John 3:6, ". . . Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. . . ."

John 15:6, ". . . If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. . . ."

 

[37818]

I both agree and disagree.
On some key points of truth, no genuine Christian, who is being led into all truth by the Spirit, will remain in disagreement for their entire lives with another who is also being led by the same Spirit.

Again,
Not everyone who professes Christ is a "genuine" Christian.
Not everyone who professes to believe, is born again and has the Spirit of God as their witness, Comforter and Teacher....
Why do you think people can go decades in constant study of His words, and never agree ( or understand in common ) with what is written on the pages?

Not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord" will enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
Not everyone who claims, up and down, adamantly and with full conviction to be His, is truly and genuinely one of Christ's sheep.

Either they will eventually come together in the unity of the faith ( Ephesians 4:1-16 ) once delivered to the saints ( Jude 1:3 ), or they will not.
If there is continued disagreement among professing believers on any subject, then there is one of two things that is at work:
One is saved and the other is not, or,
Both are not, and they are both following a "christ" that is not Him.

That my friend, is why there are denominations...
Because there are both false teachers and false believers in the visible body of Christ.
There is no such thing as "orthodoxy" ( a fuzzy gray area of "truth" that all hold in common )...

There is only one faith, or a number of false versions of it.

Without exception, either the correct meaning is denyed or a wrong meaning is read into it, by one or both readers.

 

[37818]

If your interpretation of sozo is correct then one absolutely must be water baptized to go to heaven:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Neither text makes the "baptism" a requirement in order to be saved. Furthermore, Paul made it clear baptism is not a part of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 1:17. For that matter, nowhere in the whole New Testament is water baptism part of the gospel.

 

[kyredneck]

Neither text makes the "baptism" a requirement in order to be saved. Furthermore, Paul made it clear baptism is not a part of the gospel in 1 Corinthians 1:17. For that matter, nowhere in the whole New Testament is water baptism part of the gospel.

I reiterate (just once, because I'm not going in circles with you as you're wont to do), if your interpretation of sozo is correct then one absolutely must be water baptized to go to heaven.

Using your interpretation of 'sozo' (saved, i.e., go to heaven):

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall go to heaven; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

 

[37818]

I reiterate (just once, because I'm not going in circles with you as you're wont to do), if your interpretation of sozo is correct then one absolutely must be water baptized to go to heaven.

That is a false accusation, since I believe no such thing. Furthermore, you did not refute that, nowhere in the whole New Testament is baptism taught to be part of the gospel. Put up your rebuttal or hold your peace.

 

[kyredneck]

That is a false accusation, since I believe no such thing. Furthermore, you did not refute that, nowhere in the whole New Testament is baptism taught to be part of the gospel. Put up your rebuttal or hold your peace.

Egad. Mark 16:16 is not part of the gospel?

 

[kyredneck]

Using your interpretation of 'sozo' (saved, i.e., go to heaven):

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall go to heaven; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, send yourselves to heaven from this crooked generation. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were sent to heaven through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now send you to heaven, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3

Once again:

'Saved' [sozo] has to be interpreted on an individual basis, Most applications of the word are intended other than in the eternal sense.

 

[37818]

Egad. Mark 16:16 is not part of the gospel?

Mark 16:16 does not teach baptism is required or that baptism is part of the gospel. ". . . he that believeth not shall be damned." Nowhere does the New Testament teach without water baptism a person is lost. False teachers teach baptism is necessary in order to be saved. So are you really a false teacher?